Re: USAGE: VOT and the status of /r/

Quoting Tristan McLeay <conlang@...>:

> On 30 Jan 2005, at 6.13 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> > I don't see how that's clear at all. How do we determine that a
> > phoneme that the
> > majority pronounces as [x] is, in fact, /S/? Especially when those who
> > don't
> > mostly use [s`] or [s\] rather than [S]?
>
> Just on a tangent related to this, I believe Swedish has a phoneme
> described as a simultaneous [S] and [x], I think it looks like a cross
> between a hook-top h and an eng. Is this sound used to denote this
> phoneme?
The simultaneous [S] and [x], denoted in IPA by hooktop heng and in X-SAMPA and
CXS by [x\] is indeed yet another realization of this phoneme. It is, or was,
considered the standard, but it is not actually used by many speakers. BP said
it was the one recommended for newspeakers in an earlier mail in this thread.
I've heard it's common in TY tapes for foreigners.

Quoting Tristan McLeay <conlang@...>:

> On 30 Jan 2005, at 3.30 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> > Quoting Tristan McLeay <conlang@...>:
> >
> >> On 30 Jan 2005, at 12.36 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> >>> Is this
> >>> normal for non-vanilla rice non-rhotic 'lects?
> >>
> >> I've always pronounced it more like [lo:r@no:da] or [lo:r@n:od@], but
> >> the schwa is relatively minor.
> >
> > Yes, but you're a vanilla ricer.
>
> Sorry, that went over my head (and I'm still missing it).
A vanilla ricer is someone speaking a vanilla rice dialect, ie one of the subset
of non-rhotic dialects that insert epenthetic r's to break hiatus even where
historically no /r/ has gone silent. "Vanilla ice" thus sounds like "vanilla
rice" in such dialects.

My question was directed at native non-rhotic speakers who do not insert such
unhistorical r's.

                                                     Andreas