Re: Grie Ka #1 (was Re: ,Language' in language name?)

Hiroshi Kato <hkato@...> wrote:

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But let me point out one thing. (no matter picky I am!)
" ja [de] fix" seems to consist of two words, not one :-)
In the case of two words, even in Ka, the phrase " Grie Ka "
itself is one of
the examples of category word comming first.
The thing is in Ka, 'pul' can be an independent word, but
'hari'
(or 'fix' or 'som') is not treated as an independent word.
Well,,,, am I just sticking to a silly point?

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Certainly not! You're very right. This issue might be a good
thread on AUXLANG: "Is there a universally easier position
for affixes and a universally easier word order within
compound words?" :-))). I believe it depends on your
linguistic background (but i wouldn't bet on that). (i'll
use hereunder linguistically incorrect lay words on purpose)

Compare "clever" and "atama ga ii". The same "word" or
"concept" (lexia) can be expressed with one word or a whole
sentence. One may think that "headache" or "zutsuu" are made
with more "dependent" words than "mal de tête" is. One may
think that "sentakuki" is made of more "dependent" words
than "washing machine" or "machine à laver". But all of
those expressions aparently express the same lexia --they
point at roughly the same item. The lexia is formally
expressed with more or less "dependent" words.

Each language picks a level of "dependence" ("intégration"
in french, "incorporation" in english, "gattai" or "gappei"
in japanese IIRC) to express each lexia. Compare "asatte",
"après-demain" and "the day after tomorrow". The first is a
sole word, the second a compound and the third a phrase.
This explains why each of the three speakers will feel that
the "natural" way to express "the day after tomorrow" should
be a sole word, a compound or a phrase depending on his own
linguistic background. French speakers often wonder WHY the
heck english doesn't have a word for that without even
thinking that actually "après-demain" is just the same, only
slightly more incorporated by dropping "le jour".

My point here is that the number of words associated to
express the lexia "jafix" doesn't make any difference to me.
I feel inside myself that the most "basic" way to express
"jafix" for me is formally two words linked with a genitive.
If you gave me the japanese word "shokki" i would decode in
my head the japanese word "shokki" as "instrument pour
manger" and then find the french corresponding word
"couvert". And i would really like to know how it is for
other romance speakers. Maybe i'm the only one to think like
that. :-)

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Anyway, here I have a question (actually two).
 Even in a romance language like French, IIRC,
inflection (declension, conjugation, etc.) is mainly carried
out by changing the
ending of the word, not the beginning of the word.
Am I right? And if I'm right, I'm wondering why it is so.
(Psycology?)

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Yes, you're --of course-- very right. Words derived from
latin or greek are built "tail-head": "planisphère",
"aéroplane", etc.
Words derived from other "modern" french words are made with
the latin endings: "projecteur", "chanteur", etc.
However the compound words made from two "modern" french
words are made reversely!!! : "machine à laver", "moteur à
essence", "descente de lit", "garde-robe", etc. These words
have the same level of incorporation as the derived words
despite the fact that they're made with a preposition
inbetween.

I didn't find it difficult to learn english or japanese
endings that have the same scope as in french (like "-er",
"-ing", etc) but those endings didn't make it easy for me to
switch the word order within compound words from "machine à
laver" to "washing machine" . However, this was made easier
by the fact that many french "latinized" technical words
work the same way as in english (rétroprojecteur). But
people speaking languages where both word derivations and
word compounds are head-tail ("machine a laver"), and where
derivation is often made as a compound, well --these people
have a hard time to switch to tail-head word order (washing
machine). Virtually all auxlangs make "dependent" words like
that. Maybe because latin, english and chinese do?

Important disclaimer: i'm not implying any auxlanging stuff
here, please don't flame!!!!!

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Or would anyone on the list provide me the interesting
examples of languages
 where inflection is done by changing the begining of words?
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Arabic, hebrew, swahili, indonesian, khmer, polynesian
languages. Many of them don't quite make a difference
between genitive and compound although they can tag either
with a different tag.

Indonesian:
tulis "write" > penulis "writer"
api "fire" > berapi "have fire"
gunung api "mountain fire" = volcano
Compare with:
gunung (yang) berapi "mountain with fire"

Khmer:
neak trey "man fish" = fisherman
Tahitian:
fare toa "house store" = store
Hebrew
beit-sefer "house-book" = "school"
etc.
Of course these language also have flexions and endings like
indonesian -an, khmer -piep, tahitian -ra'a.


Mathias
www.geocities.com/kalatunu/index.htm