Re: LC-01 genitive noun phrases

David Peterson wrote at 2003-10-28 04:49:43 (EST)

 > > <<However, a problem arises.  Does _sngakang kalat_ mean "his
 > > black cat" or "the cat of the black one"?  I'm loathe to make
 > > such a basic formation so ambiguous, although if anyone has any
 > > ideas on how this could be handled pragmatically, I'd be
 > > interested to hear them.>>
 >
 > Why not "sngakang skalat"?  This could be a case like in English:
 > You can't say *picker up, and you can't say *pick upper, so you
 > have to say "picker upper".

It's a possibility.  Although, of course, it already means "his black
one's cat", and I suspect that this kind of chain of genitives may be
more common in LC-01 than in English.

Possibly all adjectival elements of a possessed noun phrase could be
marked in some other way, possibly with a dummy prefix.  This sounds
plausible, as it's essentially a form of agreement between an
adjective and its head.

 >       (Incidentally, you could never get an Arabic root with three
 > velars right in a row, though this is hypothetical, since [many
 > varieties of] Arabic only [have] has one velar: /k/.  Nevertheless,
 > there are definite restrictions on the first two consonants in any
 > root.)

Yes, I'm (vaguely) aware of that.  But as you can probably tell even
from the little described here, LC-01 isn't particularly intended to
resemble Arabic - it just has a similar type of morphology.  There are
some restrictions on possible roots, although they may need to be
overhauled once I understand the phonology of the language better.

 > Though, if you wanted to play it like Arabic, then you'd probably
 > get "ngakang skalat".  It'd be like Arabic's "genitive"
 > construction where the only thing marked is the very last noun:
 >
 > 1.) bint as-s?adiiq /girl def.-friend/ "The daughter of the friend."
 > 2.) bint waalid as-s?adiiq /girl father def.-friend/ "The daughter
 > of the father of the friend."

 > 3.) bint waalid zamiil as-s?adiiq /girl father colleague
 > def.-friend/ "The daughter of the father of the colleague of the
 > friend."
 >
 > Here the definite article marks the genitive.  Anything before it
 > that *had* a definite article would be understood to not be a part
 > of the genitive string.  Example:
 >
 > 4.) bint al-waalid zamiil as-s?adiiq /girl def.-father colleague
 > def.-friend/ "The daughter of the father is the colleague of the
 > friend" (Null copula in Arabic.)
 >

This is very interesting, and makes me feel slightly better about
"ngakang skalat".  It's not, of course, quite the same
situation... How do Arabic adjectives work?  I don't think LC-01
allows purely nominal sentences of this kind, which is fortunate with
regard to avoiding this kind of ambiguity.

What I find mildly troubling about "ngakang skalat" is really that it
means marking the possessed phrase not on its head but on the
adjective most distant from the head.  I'm not sure whether the Arabic
example should make me more sanguine about this or not.

 > P.S.: In case you've heard about the fires going on in San Diego,
 > I'm right where they can't get me, which is right next to UCSD.  If
 > you know of anyone else in the San Diego area, though, I wish them
 > all the luck in all the world.  I already know of one person who's
 > lost her home (staff member in our department).

Likewise, all luck and sympathy to anyone endangered by this.