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New Survey: Celtic conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits) (fwd)

From:Mau Rauszer <maurauser@...>
Date:Thursday, January 16, 2003, 12:12
Mau Rauszer   <maurauser@...> 2003.01.14. 07:35:43 +1h-kor írta:

Sally Caves   <scaves@...> 2003.01.13. 07:19:49 +1h-kor írta:

Not applicable. My Meyadhew received some features present in the Celtic langs but it is coincidental or rather came from Sindarin.
> PART II: INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on inspiration > by Celtic languages): > > How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your exposure > to Tolkien?
Tolkien was a great inspiration for creating a beautiful language like LW is to me but I did not started conlanging because of Tolkien did it too. I started to create languages one or two months before I started to read the LotR and first it did not really inspired me.
> How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or your > conculture in Middle Earth?
No, except that i plan an Avarin Elven tribe with Long Wer as a language for one of my TolkoFics.
> How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it include some > of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology? (Elves, > Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays? Selkies? Wizards?)
No. My constructed world is in our Earth and it is the culture of Animals.
> How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish because > of your examination of Tolkien?
I examined Finnish but because of it's related to my L1.
> How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture because of > some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
My mind was the first influence, then came Tokien but in a late period.
> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society for > Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
Just a member of the Hungarian Tolkien Society, anything else.
> PART III: NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS: > > In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've > observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque" > languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and > especially the "Celtic." Why? Boring? Overdone? Trite? Too pretty? > Too Western? Or none of the above--just more interested in something else? > <G> I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only > because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY or a > DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see some > eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic," > and/or even the Indo-European model. > > What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
Ábrahám Zsófia (Sophia Abraham, anglicized) and my two ones are Long Wer and Meyadhew.
> So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging? Or > Tolkien's Elvish?
It is overdone a bit. And though it is a pretty language my taste differs somewhat. I don't really like a posteriori conlanging. I always want to do my own.
> How did you start conlanging? What was your initial inspiration?
Cats... and my conculture .)
> Did you know about Tolkien's inventions? Read the books, the appendices? > etc. Or not?
Right before I started conlanging. But firt it took me a lot to read the LotR and thus it did not impressed me deeply.
> What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
Long Wer: Egyptian basic vocabulary, Indo-european case system, Hungarian agglutinating, some Bantu words and Quenya music :) It is somewhat regular but still elaborated. Meyadhew: Bantu noun system and basic vocabulary and feeling. Veery foreign-sounding and looking.
> What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
See above.
> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had with And > Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is > "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your > conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or copiers > of Elvish. Is this so? Why?
No! Even Q inspired me to make my LW something musical and fair... because I redone all my Long Wer right before I came to this list.
> For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your > language? Or elegance? How would you define these terms?
In LW it is a great factor. In Mey., too but in another way.
> For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented > language?
For Long wer I thought it was but now I reserve it for being just beautiful and relatively western.
> How many of you invent a non-human language? And if so, how alien are its > sounds and constructions?
None of my langs are for humans, I invented my laguages for various mammal races, Meyadhew is for all carnivores and LW for felines.
> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori language? > In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base it > closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of > languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well, scratch? > (if that can be done.)
I just adopt some grammatical fetures, a few well-sounding words and the general sounding of the lang from the ones that inspire me. I have not yet made a real a posteriori conlang and i don't plan to do this.
> How many of you invent a language based on a particular type (Ergative, > Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
LW is accusative, Mey. is also accusative but in fact unmarked.
> To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important to you > in your conlang? what natural language eccentricities (or efficiencies) do > you like and try to reproduce?
I want my langs to be like a natlang with all their irregularities and difficulties.
> To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important to > your conlang? What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
I don't want to correct any, I want to produce some new types of "faults".
> How many of you invent logical languages?
I definitely not.
> How many of you invent IALs?
> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European concultures > and what are they like?
Hyew, if a non-human culture counts surely I do.
> How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally? > How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building? > I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words and > your grammar? > (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
I started out pulling out from the air but now I have a more natual way: I use both the derivation and compounding from earlier stem words and the 'from-the-air' method.
> PART IV: THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du > langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics. > > Why do you conlang? Who will speak it? Read it? What's the point? What's > the beauty? what's the intellectual draw?
Ohh... it is a very important part of my animal con-culture.
> To what would you compare a conlang? Is it a miniature? Is it a model? Is > it a tapestry? Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G> Or is it a > communicable language?
It can be a communicable language and i hope mine will be once. For me, it is a play of the sharp mind and clear taste. Some of them are just a model/miniature. It just depends on how obsessed are you :)
> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
I will speak it to the one who want to learn it. For example, one of my friends from school, my grandfather, my adopted cousin and a huge Tolkien-fan from the web. And I just read my writings to everyone who is ready to listen to me.
> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something that > pleases you? In other words, the sounds and the script have, even for you, > a quality of being foreign, and this delights. > Comment? (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself in > them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at the same > time.)
Yes! Of course! Qey aláya ú noye! How wonderful is, when I create something new which is full of me but still enjoyable by others.
> This is a difficult question: how is it that a word sounds "right" to you? > We recently discussed this. To what extent are you finding righter, better > words for the world in your conlang? (Perhaps unanswerable).
Because it fits my taste better? My thoughts and reasons? yeah, unanswerable.
> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor plans, > fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers, > cartoonists, etc.? (These pursuits have been associated with conlanging. I > 've done most of them.)
Some of 'em. Especially calligraphy and cartoons I love to make.
> How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
I have one, very similar to egyptian hieroglyphs.
> If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing system? > In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent sounds? > Why?
Only one odd transliteration sign is used: q for /k/ just because I found it fair.
> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago: how > many of you write in your language? What do you write?
Oh I wrote lots of poems and even prose texts too. I am currently working on the feline creation myth.
> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that > purpose?
I only translated some of my favourite songs to LW (I just finished Endless Night from the Lion King on Broadway). But no matter I will write some in the future.
> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have stuck > to the same language over many years? Why?
I am a teenager, still, and I stick to my lang LW for more than 2 years, though recently I hav planned some other langs too.
> How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for many > languages but not sticking with any one for very long? Why?
> For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual instrument? > This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an example. When I > first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens, what I wrote were > spells and prayers. They had a talismanic quality. Does that ring a bell > for anybody?
Mine started in another way, though the reason i invented was to write down the Qayaquala, a sacred book of Cats, but it was only a part of my con-culture.
> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its making > meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my hand).
The other thing I wrote in my earliest LW was my diary -- in hieroglyphs!
> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your pet? > child? spouse? <G> To what extent?
Oh, surely I can. The grammar of LW is pretty much in my head. Meyadhew is still a child, th grammar is not finished and there are far not eough words. I speak in LW when I am really happy or mad and don't want to let anybody to know how I feel but I want to say.
> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be showcased? > If so, what is the website address?
> How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of us can > hear it? If so, give the site.
The same site, but the sounds aren't up yet.
> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors, your > family members about this pursuit? How many of you have received > condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure? (I have.) Or > even been called "pathological"?
I received both answers. But mostly good critics, especially when I showed them some of my LW poems and so. But my friends mostly can't understand. But I hope they will admit it once...
> If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change? (On New > Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand why I would > be interested in this pursuit. What purpose could it serve?) > > For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real languages > than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered? What would be > your response to such a remark?
Well when i met this question i said "I understand better the language if I live directly in it. And I found thingsin every language I heard which I did not like. And in my own lang, everything is as I want, thus it is the mpost capable of all others to express my most personal thoughts."
> PART V: GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS: > > What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a student, > what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is your > intended major)?
well I am a high-school student and I want to learn egyptology and linguistics.
> What is your gender?
> What is your nationality and your native language?
both Hungarian
> What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
French, English, German, Latin and Middle Egyptian (I currently study all of them)
> How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your > interest in inventing languages? Or plan a profession in linguistics?
See above
> What have you learned from conlanging?
Should I list...?
> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent > your language?
--- first nothing except some ME books
> Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List > who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has > been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but > that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
Yes, one who made it for a RPG game.
> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear description > and translation?
{this one is very popular, and i think there are a very few people out there who don't know the original :) Ta.. daaa.... the Ring Poem in Long Wer. Meyadhew has a very little vocabulary so I won't write in it now} Eldaweresse sehem wu ruyau Yew ta Nauqqe silah perudit Antaya Menq we userte gea Rúya wa Neb Duaq angewiant' Lanzid e-Mordor u dúatu réd. Heqaenweq Úa, gemenweq Úa Gwienweq Úa qi umbandi dúad. Lanzid e-Mordor u dúatu réd. Elda.wer.e.sse sehem wu ruya.u Elf.great.ATT.SOC mighty 3 ring.PL (there is) with the Great Elves, three powerful ring Yew ta Nauq.q.e sil.ah 7 the Dwarf.DAT.ATT shine.AP For the Dwarves in shiny places, seven. Antaya Men.q we user.t.e gea Mortal Men.DAT be.IMP powerful.NOUN.ATT 9 Be nine powerful ones for the Mortal Man Rúya wa Neb Dua.q angewiant' (full form: angewiante) ring 1 Lord Dark.DAT cunning-to-death One Ring for the Dark Lord who's cunning to his death Lanzi.d e-Mordor u dúat.u ré.d. Land.LOC ATT.Mordor be.3pl shadow.PL day(time).LOC In the land of Mordor (where) there're shadows in the daytime Heqa.e.nwe.q Úa, gem.e.nwe.q Úa rule.INF.3sACC.DAT One, find.INF.3sACC.DAT One For rule them, One, for find them, One Gwi.e.nwe.q Úa qi umbandi dúa.d. grasp.INF.3sACC.DAT One and close-into-jail shadow.LOC For grasp them and bind them in the shadow, One. Lanzid e-Mordor u dúatu réd. Land.LOC ATT.Mordor be.3pl shadow.PL day(time).LOC In the land of Mordor (where) there're shadows in the daytime
> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my talk? > I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you answered.
Just mention me, anytime you want, I am always pleased when somebody talks about my languages :) -- Mau Rauser, ta-mau, sehem netyeru. "Ú ta walah mena, enge námannaire ta inp." Good is the teacher if the young one remembers.


John Cowan <jcowan@...>