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Re: Describing the Welsh LL to non-linguists

From:Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
Date:Friday, November 14, 2008, 11:15
Also, Mesoamerican "tl" is really an affricate /tK)/, which is spelled
"tlh" in Klingon.  The latter is where I first encountered the sound,
and the description of how to pronounce it in The Klingon Dictionary
may be instructive in this context; I don't have my copy handy or I
would quote the relevant sentences.


On 11/14/08, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
> Peter Collier wrote: >> As a kid I (L1 English Midlands-English) was always told to pronounce >> it like < CL >. I have also heard < HL > suggested as >> an English approximation, and also '' sort of somewhere between CL and >> HL''. >> >> I have also sometimes heard it pronounced by non-Welsh speakers as < >> THL > (i.e. /Tl/) when it is medial. > > This is all true, but such pronunciations are just _approximations_ > adopted often - but by no means always - by L1 speakers. > ===================================================== > > René Uittenbogaard wrote: > > I'd describe it as follows: > > Start with pronouncing a really long, sustained [l]. Now stop > > pronouncing it, but keep your tongue in the same position. Now without > > moving your tongue, blow air out, which should flow along both sides > > of the tongue. > > When I was learning Welsh - a very long time ago - I was told to push my > tongue to one side of my mouth (it didn't matter which - in fact it's > always to the left in my case) and then force air out along the other side. > > As I habitually pronounce English /l/ with tongue central, I thought > this position was an essential difference. in fact, I have learnt that > it is not so. Apparently the tongue position can vary quite a bit when > pronouncing English /l/ (i.e. it may be bilateral or just unilateral) - > but the forcing out of air (or blowing) is the important part. It's > _not_ just a voiceless and/or aspirated /l/, as I've seen it wrongly > described on some websites; it most definitely has _audible friction_ > produced by partial blocking of the airstream by the tongue. > > If you try to pronounce _pull_ and _push_ *at the same time* you get a > pretty close to Welsh _pwll_ (pit, pool) :) > > =========================================== > > Arthaey Angosii wrote: > [snip] > > Also, what transliterations are there besides "ll" for voiceless > > lateral fricatives? > > Earlier in Welsh it was sometimes written _lh_ before the spelling _ll_ > became standardized in the 16th century. > > In Nguni languages of south Africa (Zulu, Xhosa) etc, the sound is > written _hl_; these languages also have a _voiced_ lateral fricative > (IPA [ɮ]) written _dl_. > > All the above are alveolar lateral fricatives. Lateral fricatives are > also possible in retroflex, palatal and velar positions, altho there are > no IPA symbols for these. The Bura language of north-eastern Nigeria has > four lateral fricatives: voiced & voiceless alveolar ones, and voiced & > voiceless velar ones - but I haven't discovered how they are written. > > IIRC I have been told that Icelandic _hl_ and _hlj_ are voiceless > lateral fricatives, the former being alveolar & the latter palatal. > > > I have been told Icelandic > -- > Ray > ================================== > http://www.carolandray.plus.com > ================================== > Frustra fit per plura quod potest > fieri per pauciora. > [William of Ockham] >
-- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>

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Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
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