Re: YAGPT:Re: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton"
|From:||J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_wust@...>|
|Date:||Wednesday, October 6, 2004, 9:41|
On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:14:31 +0100, Joe <joe@...> wrote:
>Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>>On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:29:26 -0000, Christian Thalmann <cinga@...>wrote:
>>>Consider this: When the new orthography writes "behände"
>>>rather than "behende", does the pronunciation change? In
>>>standard High German, it doesn't, which is why they could
>>>pull off that kind of change in the first place.
>>It clearly DOES. Perhaps there is no difference in your dialect, but
>>normally, there IS. That's one reason why so many oppose the spelling
>>reform, because the pronunciation DOES change, encouraging
>In the English debates, we don't have things like this. We merely agree
>that we speak different dialects and stop talking about these things.
>And there's no such thing as mispronounciation.
German has two different layers of variation: The variation of dialect
(mostly not mutuably understandable) and the variation of standard German.
The latter is often ignored, since many have a prescriptive idea of the
pronunciation of the standard. But there can be no doubt that standard
German spoken by a Berliner is different from standard German spoken by a
Münchener or a Wiener or a Zürcher.
>>>and all the dictionaries agree with us. If |Sätze| and
>>>|setze| sounded different, the distinction would be
>>>phonemic, and it would be downright sloppy not to include
>>>it in the Duden.
>>"You have very strange dictionaries..."
>>(nah, just joking)
>>The Ipa spelling in the dictionaries was created by native English
>>speakers who generally can't hear a difference, so of course the
>>dictionaries won't list one either.
The Duden redaction is native German linguists.
>>>My impression is that you are referring to a feature of
>>>your local dialect, rather than standard Hochdeutsch.
>>It's rather the very opposite. Apparently your local dialect is influenced
>>by English speakers, explaining why you can't hear a difference just like
There is not a single pronunciation of standard German. If you absolutly
insist on a single standard pronunciation, then you could take the
prescriptive tradition of the "Deutsche Bühnenaussprache" by Theodor Siebs
(1898), but then you'd have the absurd result that there'd be hardly any
speakers of standard German. And Siebs, by the way, declares _setze_ and
_Sätze_ to be homophonous.
j. 'mach' wust