Re: Probability of Article Replacement?

On Wednesday 26 February 2003 09:06 am, Mau Rauszer wrote:
> Muke Tever  <mktvr@...> 2003.02.26. 10:52:08 -5h-kor írta:
>
> > From: "John Cowan" <jcowan@...>
> > > Peter Bleackley scripsit:
> > >
> > Hungarian apparently marks definiteness/indefiniteness of the object
of a
> > verb
> > with a different verbal inflection.
> >
> >     Látok egy madarat.    "I see a bird."
> >     Látom a madarat.      "I see the bird."
> >
> > (But it also has articles, as seen--<a(z)> definite and <egy> indef)
>
> I think it is better to explain that the verb agrees with the
definiteness of the object,
> since the transitive mood (that different kind of inflection) can't
indicate it itself.
> You can't say:
>  'Látom madarat.' without the definite article and the transitive
form.
>
> It is also a feature that when an indefinite noun appears _without_
the definite article,
> you must place the object before the verb.
>
> Thus, 'Madarat látok'. the form 'Látok madarat' is incorrect. The
indefinite object with article
> 'egy' can be placed either before or after the subject.
>
> --
> Mau Rauser | Mwarauzí | Meoi Tauranáro | Ábrahám Zsófia
>        | http://www.hiaqimau.tk | http://www.longwer.tk
> "Yú lawe ta mau, yibalie taqe yamissi qi u neb dagu tawiy iq."
> "I am the Cat who walks by herself and all places are alike to me."
-- Kipling
>
>
Ah Hah!

Cherani Trade Speech is sometimes SVO and sometimes SOV.

When Trade Speech speakers teach the language to new trading partners
they say "specifiers precede the thing specified, modifiers follow the
thing modified, so the relationship between the verb and the object
determines which comes first", which of course is annoyingly
subjective.

But they do have optional markers for definiteness (which go in the
specifier slot, of course), so definiteness is probably one of the
criteria that can pull the object forward (and make the definiteness
marker redundant):
"I see bird" is "I see a bird": I am seeing, and the bird is what I see.
"I bird see" is "I see the bird": I am doing something to a particular
bird, and what I am doing is seeing. "I see the bird", with the marker,
might be a response to a question meaning, "Can you see the bird?"

(Cherani Trade Speech is actually Trade-Speech Cherani, with the remains
of an instrumental marker in the '-' specifier spot. "Trade" is so
important culturally that it trumps most other candidates for the topic
slot.)
--
Elyse Grasso