Re: Lico, leicio, licio, hoffi, coffi. Was: Okay, so it *didn't* work

On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 10:54:38PM -0500, Steg Belsky wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:40:27 -0500 Sally Caves <scaves@...>
> writes:
> > write Welsh.  And it probably is.  But the Swansea Wlpan was intent
> > on keeping us "cool."
> > And away from the Gogs.  <LOL>  That was a difficult year: I was
> > starting my dissertation
> > on the cynfeirdd, learning and speaking Wlpan Swansea Welsh,
I've got this picture of you getting your registers crossed and going
into the "may God who hears my confession repay thee thy kindness ..."
routine after buying a loaf of bread in the shop :)

>
> > Sal gal : >
> -
>
> Oh no!  It's more fodder for the Celtic-Semitic Connection Hypothesis!
> If i remember the "Bran teaches Will(?) to read Welsh" scene from _The
> Grey King_ in the _Dark is Rising_ fantasy book series, {w} in Welsh is
> pronounced /u/?  Which would make {Wlpan} something like /ulpan/ - and
> /ulpan/ is Hebrew for "intensive language-learning program"!
>
Well imitation is the highest form of flattery. The Welsh know a good thing
when they see it, they nicked the Ulpan/Wlpan system wholesale. I've met
people who've done it, and it works in one very important way, people
come out of it _believing_ that they can speak Welsh, which is a kind of
self-fulfilling prophesy. This is quite amazing given the linguistic
block that most British English monoglots seem to have. Years of school
French (or in Ireland school Irish) seem to have almost no effect by
comparison. Does anyone know how the trick is done?

In _leicio_ the second <i> is a semivowel /j/ and gets dropped in SE
Welsh dialects. I didn't realise it went as far as Abertawe, I remember
it as a Gwent/ E. Morgannwg characteristic. Some of the Middle Welsh mss
show it (or rather don't show it) which is supposed to prove that they
were written in Gwent, but then maybe they were just a bit short of ink.
Now I think about it _hoffi_ and _hoff_ "fond" look a bit odd for Welsh,
but I've no idea of their origin. Is there an IE root *sopp- ?

The old formal written style of Welsh was a bit antique and artificial,
basically it was Bible Welsh. Trouble is, without it all you've got is
dialects which can differ quite a lot in everyday expressions etc. The
attempt to create a standard spoken Welsh (Cymraeg Byw) for learners in
the 60's drew lots of criticism and seems to have been abandoned. An
example perhaps of the grey area between Conlangs and Natlangs.

Dwi ar blaid y gogs, beth bynnag!

Keith

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