Re: Possession (was: Re: Ergative)
|From:||Mathias M. Lassailly <lassailly@...>|
|Date:||Friday, October 23, 1998, 21:19|
Sally Caves wrote:
> > A book is with me, in Welsh. I've toyed for a long time with making this
> > a part of Teonaht.
> Watya'iya`isa uses the dative with salauni' (sa- = dative-applicative,
> launi' = be (loc.)), thus: ta^lnaz pisani salauni'l = to-me house it-is
> = I have a/the house. However, the possessor can be made into the
> absolutive thru the general dative-object rule (dative can become
> absolutive; former absolutive is made perlative)
Dative is getting the object itself = apply the object
Absolutive is getting the result of or the work or function of that object = apply the
object as an instrument :
me-dat house = I get a house.
me-abs house = I get housed.
It's not a question of predicate, but of verb.
house (dat) > symbol (house) > home (abs)
See the original message at http://www.egroups.com/list/conlang/?start=17643
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> salauni'u = house-perl. dat.appl.-be-1Sabs. Dative-object construction
> is required for transitive verbs when the recipient is a 1st or 2nd
> person pronoun, and very common with 3rd person animate pronouns,
> moderately common with 3rd person inanimate pronouns, and fairly rare
> with animate nouns, and non-existent with inanimate nouns. Anyways,
> with intransitive verbs (like salauni'), it's also quite common for 1st
> and 2nd person pronouns. In fact, I suspect that salauni' would evolve
> into a simple transitive verb "to have" in some of the descendants.
> Perhaps the dative might remain in some archaic constructions,
> equivalent to our "methinks".
> > Presently, there is a distinction, of course, between possession that
> > is agentive and possession that isn't: Somebody has blue eyes through no
> > willful act of his own, but someone has a house because he's bought it.
> > _aned_ and _harem_. I think the gods, though, should be exempt from all
> > unagentive acts: The gods HAVE (harem, not aned as I have written it)
> > retractible claws because they are gods and have planned everything.
> Cool! I never even thought about that. Perhaps *that* will determine
> when the dative-object construction is used in salauni' ... Something to
> think about.
> "It's bad manners to talk about ropes in the house of a man whose father
> was hanged." - Irish proverb
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