Re: causation particles

Garrett Jones <alkaline@...> wrote:
>>>
 > i think your "li" is basically a factitive auxiliary
 > cum-resultive preposition.
that was quite a mouthful :) Mind to explain?
<<<
:-) basically "li" expresses both "to make verb/to verbify/to verbize" and
"[to verb up] into"--though "to make", "-ify" and "-ize" have different
specialized meanings. like in your Minyeva, my Tunu verb system is based on
agent, patient and focus. Tunu had independent tags such as your "li" and
"i" but i was often mixing up the patient for the focus like in "to plant a
garden with flowers" vs. "to plant flowers in the garden". so after a few
months i ended up prefixing voices and suffixing prepositions so it became:

"to plant a garden with flowers":
tai-puti-nyu peche we-lotiloti
[to] make-planted-in garden OBJ-flowers

"to plant flowers in the garden":
tai-puti lotiloti u-peche
[to] make-planted flowers in-garden

(hai)puti is a state verb meaning "to stand/get planted" that is not
passive, like many base verbs in japanese and english are "mediopassive":
(hai)chopi "to cook", (hai)paki "to change", etc.
some european langs have translate them as reflexives: "se planter", "se
cuire", "se changer".

>>>
curious, what languages are these?
<<<
the same ol' ones i keep rabitting on over: khmer, indonesian, japanese but
there are plenty more i guess.

>>>
I'm curious, how would you say the following?
"I made him kill me"
It would be rendered into Minyeva as:
le i va  piko i zo
I  P-him dead P-(previous agent)
the 'zo' word functions to refer back to 'le', the original agent.
Additionally, tossing the 'li' word in there:
le i va li piko i zo
"I made him cause my death." or "I made him make me die."
<<<
i see. i can't move tags around in Tunu like you do with minyeva:

Kami ataipengehi kami/haki wokama.
I make-killed me/self by-him.

"haki" refers to the subject, not to the agent like "zo" does apparently.
both kai- and tai- prefixes make a factitive but they're different:

kai- = to make (someone) verb
tai- = to make (someone) be verbed

(hai-)pengehi--to die
kai-pengehi--to make die = to kill
nai-pengehi--to be killed
tai-pengehi--to make (someone) be killed

that works the same with transitive verbs:
(hai-)tula--to give
nai-tula--to be given
tai-tula--to make (something) be given
kai-(tai-)tula--to make (someone) give (something)

kai- is the "hard form"--"kita yakoku"--of hai- and tai- is the hard form of
nai-, which is the "soft form"--"kita yakongoku"--of tai- and vice versa :-)

mathias



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