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Orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization etc)

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Thursday, September 9, 2004, 18:52
On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 09:55 , Tamas Racsko wrote:

> On 8 Sep 2004 Ray Brown <ray.brown@FREE..> wrote: > >> I have always been struck by certainly resemblances between Turkish and >> Volapük orthography (the use of the trema and the peculiar value of |c| >> = >> [dZ] are obvious examples), that I had long wondered if Atatürk had known >> Volapük. But it appears that these resemblances are just co-incidental. > > Turks has a long connection with Venice. Italian use |c| for /tS/ > before front vowels, and common Italian /tS/ is often voiced in
[rest snipped] Yes, yes - I can all sorts of reasons why the Turkish conventions were adopted. In fact I knew the Turkish system years before I came across Volapük. But when I met the Volapük system, I was struck by certainly similarities with Turkish orthography.
> Therefore Turkish system is a balkanized amalgam of various > Romance conventions plus German for un-Romance front round vowels.
> Schleyer faced a similar problem as Turks with a similar phoneme > inventory.
Except the Turks, so to speak, inherited the phoneme inventory; Schleyer had a 'blank slate' - he could choose his own inventory. He did not have to have rounded front vowels nor retain the distinction between |ä| and |e| - a distinction which few of his fellow countrymen seem to keep today.
> And similar circumstances may lead to similar solutions > even independently, cf. dolphins and sharks, hummingbird hawk moth > and hummingbird, thylacines and canines etc.
Yes, as I wrote, the resemblances in the two systems appear to be coincidental. I think on Turkish orthography we are probably in total agreement :)
> >> Pinyin does allow the alternative spelling _lyu_ and _nyu_. One >> wonders why they didn't simply adopt the alternative forms as >> standard. > > IMHO _lyu_ and _nyu_ is a bit odd, off-system solution.
Yes, not entirely satisfactory, I agree. But it is similar to the solution adopted by GR.
> It > implies a velar glide ending (the first palatal glide of the coda > is rendered as |i| in other finals).
I don't really see why it should as |y| is not used a vowel symbol in Pinyin. But the fact that Pinyin renders palatal glides in codas as |i| should make it clear that |y| is not a glide here, but part of a graphy whereby |yu| = [y]. But as I have said, it is not entirely satisfactory. My fellow countrymen would be liable to read _nyu_ as /naju/ :)
> Russian solution is a bit more > appropriate since the final glide is palatal: Russian {n'u} for PY > |nu| and {n'uj} for |nü|. This could be |nui| or |lui| in PY.
Except that |ui| is actually used in Pinyin for /w@j/ (yes, I know there are arguments about the phonematization of vowels in Mandarin), tho IIRC /w@j/ doesn't occur after /l/ or /n/.
> French is much more systematic: PY final |iu| is always |ieou| > here, therefore they can use |iu| for /y/.
GR also used |iu| for /y/.
> In Pinyin there would > have been also possible a |niou| /nju/ ~ |niu| /ny/ contrast.
It would indeed, and this solution had occurred to me.
> This > solution would be solve also the problem in Pinyin that the same > final is written differently in |you| vs. |jiu|, |liu| etc.
I agree.
> And of course, simple |ly|, |ny| would be also better choice than > |lyu|, |nyu|.
Yes, it would.
> IMHO also they were not satisfied with |lyu| and |nyu|. I think > that they defined only for special media such as telegraph.
Probably true. But in view the use of diacritics to show tone, it would have been better, I think, to have avoided the double-dot solution. But 'tis now now.
> Hungarian also has a special convention for telegraphic usage, i.e. > vowel doubling instead of acute accent,
Makes sense.
> |oe| for |ö| and |ue| for |ü|
That of course follows German practice. One German visitor who stayed with us several years ago told me that |ä|, |ö| and |ü| should be written as |AE|, |OE| and |UE| when writing in block capitals. I don't know whether this is universally true or just a habit of hers.
> (optionally |ooe| and |uue| for long variants).
Now that I did not know. You keep learning new things on this list :) Ray =============================================== =============================================== "They are evidently confusing science with technology." UMBERTO ECO September, 2004


Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>