Orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization etc)

On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 09:55 , Tamas Racsko wrote:

> On 8 Sep 2004 Ray Brown <ray.brown@FREE..> wrote:
>
>> I have always been struck by certainly resemblances between Turkish and
>> Volapük orthography (the use of the trema and the peculiar value of |c|
>> =
>> [dZ] are obvious examples), that I had long wondered if Atatürk had known
>> Volapük. But it appears that these resemblances are just co-incidental.
>
>   Turks has a long connection with Venice. Italian use |c| for /tS/
> before front vowels, and common Italian /tS/ is often voiced in
[rest snipped]

Yes, yes - I can all sorts of reasons why the Turkish conventions were
adopted. In fact I knew the Turkish system years before I came across
Volapük. But when I met the Volapük system, I was struck by certainly
similarities with Turkish orthography.

>   Therefore Turkish system is a balkanized amalgam of various
> Romance conventions plus German for un-Romance front round vowels.
Yep.

> Schleyer faced a similar problem as Turks with a similar phoneme
> inventory.
Except the Turks, so to speak, inherited the phoneme inventory; Schleyer
had a 'blank slate' - he could choose his own inventory. He did not have
to have rounded front vowels nor retain the distinction between |ä| and |e|
  - a distinction which few of his fellow countrymen seem to keep today.

> And similar circumstances may lead to similar solutions
> even independently, cf. dolphins and sharks, hummingbird hawk moth
> and hummingbird, thylacines and canines etc.
Yes, as I wrote, the resemblances in the two systems appear to be
coincidental. I think on Turkish orthography we are probably in total
agreement   :)

>
>> Pinyin does allow the alternative spelling _lyu_ and _nyu_. One
>> wonders why they didn't simply adopt the alternative forms as
>> standard.
>
>   IMHO _lyu_ and _nyu_ is a bit odd, off-system solution.
Yes, not entirely satisfactory, I agree. But it is similar to the solution
adopted by GR.

> It
> implies a velar glide ending (the first palatal glide of the coda
> is rendered as |i| in other finals).
I don't really see why it should as |y| is not used a vowel symbol in
Pinyin. But the fact that Pinyin renders palatal glides in codas as |i|
should make it clear that |y| is not a glide here, but part of a graphy
whereby |yu| = [y]. But as I have said, it is not entirely satisfactory.
My fellow countrymen would be liable to read _nyu_ as /naju/  :)

> Russian solution is a bit more
> appropriate since the final glide is palatal: Russian {n'u} for PY
> |nu| and {n'uj} for |nü|. This could be |nui| or |lui| in PY.
Except that |ui| is actually used in Pinyin for /w@j/ (yes, I know there
are arguments about the phonematization of vowels in Mandarin), tho IIRC
/w@j/ doesn't occur after /l/ or /n/.

>   French is much more systematic: PY final |iu| is always |ieou|
> here, therefore they can use |iu| for /y/.
GR also used |iu| for /y/.

> In Pinyin there would
> have been also possible a |niou| /nju/ ~ |niu| /ny/ contrast.
It would indeed, and this solution had occurred to me.

> This
> solution would be solve also the problem in Pinyin that the same
> final is written differently in |you| vs. |jiu|, |liu| etc.
I agree.

>   And of course, simple |ly|, |ny| would be also better choice than
> |lyu|, |nyu|.
Yes, it would.

>   IMHO also they were not satisfied with |lyu| and |nyu|. I think
> that they defined only for special media such as telegraph.
Probably true. But in view the use of diacritics to show tone, it would
have been better, I think, to have avoided the double-dot solution. But
'tis now now.

> Hungarian also has a special convention for telegraphic usage, i.e.
> vowel doubling instead of acute accent,
Makes sense.

> |oe| for |ö| and |ue| for |ü|
That of course follows German practice. One German visitor who stayed with
us several years ago told me that |ä|, |ö| and |ü| should be written as
|AE|, |OE| and |UE| when writing in block capitals. I don't know whether
this is universally true or just a habit of hers.

> (optionally |ooe| and |uue| for long variants).
Now that I did not know. You keep learning new things on this list  :)

Ray
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"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO				September, 2004

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