Re: a Tocharian theory (was Re: Kentum/satem)

In a message dated 05/02/2002 02.33.13 AM, Jan (ijzeren_jan@YAHOO.CO.UK)
quotes me and writes:

>> The Tocharians were Buddhists before the Chinese were, right?
>
>All I know is that they *were* Buddhists, but when? Don't ask me!
>All Tocharian materials we have (largely Buddhist in content) go back to
>the years 450-750.
    Buddhism was introduced to China around the beginnings of the C.E. but
was not widespred till around the T'ang dynasty (618-907 C.E.)

>> Also, the Chinese word for "dog" is originally a Tocharian word, yes?
>>The Tocharians introduced dogs or dog-breeding to China, yes?
>
>The word for "dog" in Tocharian (both A and B) is: ku.
    I forget the Mandarin, but the Cantonese (Yue) is _gau_.

>>     In recent years the Uyghurs (Uighurs) have been claiming that they
>>are descendants of the Tocharians. Personally I find this highly doubtful.
>>If anything, the Uyghurs' ancestors were Turkic and if these Turkic people
>>had any thing at all to do with the Tocharians, it maybe that they wiped
>>them out as a people - either by genocide or by interbreeding... or some
>>combination thereof.
>
>This is all very vague.
    Yes. Makes it all the more intriguing, yes? But of course this vagueness
also invites "fruitcake" theorizing (which are - at best - amusing... and
distracting at worst).

>All we know for sure is, that there WERE Tocharians
>(probably under a different name, by the way) until 750, while afterwards
>they disappeared into Finnair.
    0_o? "Finnair"? They flew to Finland? ::just joking with ya::

>> How come? I think, there are only three possibilities:
> - the Turks overwhelmed and killed them;
> - the Turks overwhelmed and assimilated them;
> - they were all abducted by aliens.
>I hope the third option is true (then we might suddenly get humanoid visitors
>from a planet called "Tocharistan"), but I'm afraid the second is more
>probable.
    I thoroughly agree with you on all counts, but my pessimistic soul says
option #1 more than Option #2 based purely on the gut-feeling that the
Tocharians must have been wiped out over a period of a few centuries (My
rough theory: At first, the Tocharians resisted being surrounded and
overwhelmed by these hostile, nomadic Turkic peoples. But the sheer numbers
of the Turkic peoples gradually moving east changed Central Asia forever.
Later, the Turkic tribespeople - settling down to semi-nomadic, agarian
"civilization" - intermarried with what remaining Tocharian survivors were
left, by which time there was no longer a living Tocharian culture or
language to speak of).

>There is a theory that the recently discovered Takla Makan mummies were
>Tocharians. An interesting idea, because the mummies were tall, reddish-
>blonde and look much more European than Asiatic.
>
>You can see them at: >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html
    I have to say that - at this point in time - I subscribe to this theory.
And IIRC there are still legends and stories about red-haired "Chinese" who
were Buddhists who lived in the Western Lands.
    Amongst some western Chinese minority peoples, they sometimes still have
reddish haired, freckled skinned children.

     (My mother has freckles, but that maybe _possibly_ due to
"Russian-Jewish blood" introduced into the Wong family-line in the mid-19th
century. Just another plausible reason why the Wongs have had names like
"Josef/Joseph", "Saul", "Aaron," and "Moses" since that time... besides the
Wong Side of the Family being Christianized in the early 20th century. My
mum's name is Myra, BTW... )

    Jonathan Chang

Hanuman Zhang  {HANoomaan JAHng} /'hanuma~n  dZahN/
~§~
_LILA_ <from Sanskrit> = "Divine Play"  - the 'joyous exercise of spontaneity
involved in the art of creation' (Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan)...the play of
creation, destruction, & re-creation, the folding & unfolding of the cosmos...
both the delight & enjoyment of this moment, & the play of [the] God[head]
("the universe is what happens when God wants to play").

_Spielraum_ <from German> = free scope to experiment with things & ideas; to
toy with ideas; room to play in

    WHIM = 1a. a sudden fancy; a caprice. b. capriciousness. 2. a kind of
windlass for raising ore or water from a mine. [17th century: origin unknown;
derived from _whim-wham_]
    WHIMSY (plural forms: WHIMSIES, WHIMSEYS) = 1. a whim; a capricious
notion or fancy. 2. capricious or quaint humour. [related to WHIM-WHAM] /
Italian _capriccio_, French _boutade_
    WHIM-WHAM = a toy or plaything

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