Re: noun compounds

Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]

> However, in older Swedish you do see spellings corresponding to _äppel och
> björnbärs paj_ (note relative positions of 's' and space!).
That's better   ;)

[snip]
> Since you mentioned Greek compounding forms, it may be mentioned that _äppel-_
> is a compound form; the simplex "apple" is _äpple_. _Björnbärs-_ is an example
> of a genitive used as a compounding form.
Interesting. English, of course, does not have different forms for
simplex and compounding. Greek, being an inflexional language, had (has)
distinct form for compounding. What I find odd is the inclusion of 'och'
(and) when compounding. In Greek the morphemes are just juxtaposed like
the German Apfelbrombeerpastete. There's a lovely word of some 50+
letters IIRC in one of Aristophanes comedies; it means a 'hash', and is
in effect a list of all the ingredients in the hash as one long compound
noun. But there ain't a single 'kai' (and) in the whole thing!

>
>>I really do not see why Carsten and our Swedish conlangers are being so
>>awkward about English and regarding our usage as 'idiosyncratic'. The
>>juxtaposition of one noun with another, where one is the head of the NP
>>and the other its attribute or epithet is *not* peculiar just to
>>English. It is common in Welsh, for example, (where the nouns in the
>>opposite order to English), in Indonesian/Malay and quite a few other
>>languages AFAIK.
>
> Thing is, I don't believe I've run across the notion that the Malay noun-noun
> constructs are anything but compounds before. That might very well be a bad
> analysis,
Possibly our different analyses are due to the speech habits of our
respective languages. But the Welsh example is clearer. In Welsh, if two
(or more) nouns form a compound, then the second (third etc) noun is
subject to initial soft mutation, e.g.
cor (dwarf) + ci (dog) --> corgi (a corgi dog)
môr (sea) + brân (crow) --> morfran (cormorant)

But 'pork' ain't *cigfoch; it is _cig moch_ where the noun _moch_ (pigs)
is an epithet of _cig_ (meat).

The juxtaposition of two nouns, where one acts as an the epithet to the
other is, I maintain, not an English idiosyncrasy.

[snip]

>>Now that is helpful, I think, in pointing up the difference between the
>>German compound and the analytical English construct. 'Apple &
>>blackberry pie' means Apfel-Brombeer-Pastete_, and the German is clearly
>>a compound (in a similar way to what is found in Greek, for example) and
>>does not require a word for 'and' as, apparently, the Swedish does (if
>>indeed Andreas' Swedish does mean the same as my English).
>
>
> I suppose you could say _björnbärsäppelpaj_ too, but it isn't what I'd say
> spontaneously.
Yes, _björnbärsäppelpaj_ is IMO a clear compound. But _äppel- och
björnbärspaj_ seems to me a half-way house between the full compound
_björnbärsäppelpaj_ and the analytical English "apple & blackberry pie"
(or "blackberry and apple pie")
==========================================

Roger Mills wrote:
 > Ray Brown wrote:
[snip]
 > Just to sow more confusion, a lot of this would depend on
context...as usual
 > ;-(

...and on dialect also ;-(

[snip]
 > "For desert, we have apple and b.berry pie" -- could be either,
personally
 > I'd interpret it as two kinds of pie. Certainly we USers say "For
 > Thanksgiving, it's customary to have mince and pumpkin pie"-- 2 kinds
of pie
 > (love 'em both!!)

Nope - in the English I've been used to all my life "For desert, we have
apple and b.berry pie" would mean only _one _ pie. On the other hand, if
the disjunctive _or_ were used things would be different   ;)

Similarly, "mince & pumpkin pie" would mean only one piece filled with
mince & pumpkin (which seems to me a perfectly reasonable combo). But
"mince & pumpkin pieS" would be ambiguous."

I rather fancy there simply is difference of usage in the anglophone
world over these matters. Tristan has recently gives us "apple pear
juice" which may be OK in Oz, but sounds ungrammatical here.

But I certainly have NO wish to start a YAEDT on this! It seems to me that:
- English does have both compound nouns and the epithet-noun +
head-noun' construct;
- the borderline between the two is fuzzy;
- there is variation within the anglophone world.

I really think this a subject which could form a Ph.D. thesis  :)

I wonder if we shall get any forwarder by prolonging this thread.

--
Ray
==================================
ray@carolandray.plus.com
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY

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