Re: Feminization of plurals?

2009/2/12 Njenfalgar <njenfalgar@...>

> 2009/2/11 René Uittenbogaard <ruittenb@...>
>
> > the originally correct form:
> > het meisje dat ik zag
> > the.NEUTER girl that.NEUTER I saw
> >
> > is being replaced by:
> > het meisje die ik zag
> > the.NEUTER girl that.COMMON I saw
> >
> > and "die" is used especially with the indefinite article:
> > een meisje die ik zag
> > a girl that.COMMON I saw
> >
> > probably influenced by the fact that the indefinite article "een" is
> > identical for all genders.
> >
> > But also for inanimate nouns:
> >
> > een plan die we hebben gemaakt
> > a plan that.COMMON we made
> >
> > can be heard more and more, even though "plan" is neuter (het plan).
> >
> > René
> >
>
> In the variety of Dutch my sisters speak (a mixture of South-Western
> Brabandish and standard Dutch) "die" is used with all words, and "dat" is
> used to introduce any subordination. So we have:
>
> correct: toen ik het meisje zag (when I saw the girl)
> SWB: toen dat ik het meisje zag (when that I saw the girl)
>
> correct: het meisje dat ik zag (the girl that(neuter) I saw)
> SWB: het meisje die dat ik zag (the girl that(conj.) that(part. for
> subord.)
> I saw)
>
Interesting. I didn't notice this from my husband's dialect (South-Eastern
Brabandish), I will have to pay more attention next time he talks to people
from his family (alone with me he only speaks standard Dutch) and see if I
can spot something similar.

Or maybe just listen more often to songs from Gerard van Maasakkers, whose
dialect is for all intents and purposes identical to the one my husband was
brought up with.


>
> SWB has more features unique to it, however, like marking an animate direct
> object with the preposition "aan",

Funny, that's a feature of standard Castillan Spanish (with the preposition
"a"). I've heard that indirection of animate direct objects is actually a
common phenomenon, even in accusative languages, but I only knew the Spanish
case.


> and though the real dialect of the region
> has kept the full three-gender system (with indefinite article: "ne" -
> "een"
> - "e"), young people seem to be converging to a single-gender system.
>
>
As far as I can tell, in SOB (okay, it *might* be an unlucky acronym ;) )
those three indefinite articles also exist, but more as euphonic variations
than as gendered articles.
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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