Re: Theory about the evolution of languages

John Cowan said:
> J. 'Mach' Wust scripsit:
>
>> Thanks for this information. I didn't know that there were two different
>> uses of the term 'clitic'.
>
> Well, one can construct a unified definition (as someone -- Mark Line?
> has done) by introducing the distinction between the morphosyntactic
> and phonological definitions of the term "word", which in one sense
> simply pushes the problem off elsewhere, but is probably more useful
> overall, since you can get a lot more mileage out of splitting "word"
> into two senses.
Yep. At the very least, you get into deep kimchee with neuropsychological
data if you don't model morphosyntactic vs. phonological words as
different units (actually, if you don't model the morphosyntax vs.
phonology of an utterance as different hierarchies).

In any event, I can't take credit for constructing the unified definition
that way. It's a pretty standard way of describing the term among
functional /typological linguists.


>> If I understand you correctly, you're saying the following: If it's the
>> noun in apposition that bears the ending, not the one it's 'apposed'
>> to, then this (kinda unmoored) ending can be called a 'clitic'. Like
>> this, the German genitive ending in _Onkel Dagoberts Millionen_ is a
>> clitic suffix, but in _die Millionen unseres Onkels Dagobert_, it's
>> not a clitic suffix.
>
> I don't think it's a clitic in either case, actually; it's clear that the
> second example is an apposition, but not so clear that the first one is.
> "Onkel Dagobert" may be seen as a compound name, but not so "Dagobert(s)
> Onkel".

Interesting question about 'Onkel Dagoberts Millionen'. It's tempting to
consider the -s a clitic because it seems to be attaching to 'Onkel
Dagobert'. But because the -s is a perfectly good genitive suffix on names
in clearer cases, I think the description would be simpler if you found a
way to explain why 'Onkel' doesn't have to take the genitive suffix as
well. This type of NP (title + name) is unique in other ways, so I assume
that's part of the answer.

The dialect I'm actually fluent in doesn't have genitive forms like these,
so somebody who's a native speaker of the standard language should answer:
what if the title is 'Herr' instead of 'Onkel'? I know most people where I
lived would say 'Herr Enterichs Millionen' when they were trying to mimic
the standard language ('die Milliune vunn Herr Enterich' otherwise); is
this supposed to be 'Herrn Enterichs Millionen' in standard?

-- Mark

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