Re: CHAT: Citrons (was: Danny Wier's PIE (was: Vocab #5))

> Date:         Mon, 29 Apr 2002 01:04:47 -0400
> From: Steg Belsky <draqonfayir@...>
>
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:54:21 -0000 Lars Henrik Mathiesen
> <thorinn@...> writes:
> > That site also claims that the original Sukkot fruit was that of
> > the cedar tree, and that its name (Hebrew hadar > Greek kedros >
> > Latin cedrus) was changed somehow to give Latin citrus, presumably
> > because of this identification. Not implausible, but I would want
> > to check that with other sources before I trusted it too much.
> That doesn't make sense.... "cedar" in Hebrew is |erez|
Now it is. Are you sure about 3300 years ago?

The claim on that site (not my claim) is that the tree that Moses
called hadar was the cedar, but that Jews changed over to using the
citron at some point. Is that unclear from my posting?

> "citron" is |etrog|, referred to indirectly in the Torah as |pri `eitz
> hadar|, "fruit of the beautiful tree".
Exactly. So the identity of the fruit hinges on the name of the tree,
not the fruit itself. I suppose that the name of the fruit appears in
later Jewish literature, but I don't have the resources to find out.

By the way, citron trees are low and spiny, almost bushes. According
to some at least, hadar is based on a root meaning high. And the cedar
is the archetypical beautiful tree of the region, I'd think. On the
other hand: while the citrus tree is originally from Iran or nearby,
it was cultivated in Egypt and would have been known to Moses.

> And the claim that citrons are only used by European Jews is factually
> incorrect... etrogim are used by everyone.
Where does it say they aren't? But the part I read only talked about
Italian supplies of citrons to European Jews in the 11th century, so I
didn't want to extend it.

> Yemenite citrons may be twice the size as everyone else's, but
> they're still citrons and not whatever fruit grows on cedars - if
> cedars have fruits at all.
Cedars have "cone[s] borne singly, stalked, 3 - 5" long by 2 - 2 1/2"
wide. Apex of cone flattened or slightly depressed," according to
http://ag.udel.edu/udbg/conifers/descriptions/c_libani.html. See
http://ag.udel.edu/udbg/conifers/images/img_0068.gif for a picture.

That's about the same shape as a citron. There are lots of websites
with advice about choosing citrons for Sukkot, and they all stress
that the fruit should have one thicker end and be ridged.

> So unless that website is claiming that the Greeks and/or Latins couldn't
> tell the difference between a citron tree and a cedar tree, it sounds
> like pretty shady research.
It's claiming that the Jews changed the fruit used some time during
the last 3300 years, and that the Romans took them up on it --- that
is, the idea of the citrus/citron being the fruit of the cedros.

I still don't think it's a well founded claim, but your objections
aren't that convincing either. Further evidence is needed, either way.

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@...> (Humour NOT marked)