Re: OT: Dutch pronunciation questions

On Tuesday 07 May 2002 17:33, you wrote:
> Dag, Netherlandophones! Hoe gaat het?
Goed!

> 1. The diphthong ij/ei. Textbooks always say this is /ej/ (or usually
> say something along the lines of "like ay in day") but it never
> sounds like that to me; to my ear it sounds more like /æj/ (sorry,
> don't know X-SAMPA; I hope the characters come out).
I say [Ej]...

> I heard or read
> once that some people now even say /aj/.
...but my daughters, six and eight, say [Aj], as do many of their
teachers (women in their mid-twenties). It's shifting, as it has
already in Danish. I've given up correcting them, but I still make fun
of them.

> 2. Eu. This was mentioned in an earlier thread, I think, but I
> couldn't figure out the X-SAMPA. Textbooks always say it's a simple
> vowel, describing it as being like French eu or German ö. But it
> always sounds like a diphthong to me, though I can't figure out
> exactly what it is, so I can't transcribe it. I just hear more than
> one sound there.
Almost all Dutch vowels, especially long(ish) ones, have some measure of
diphthongization. Depending on the flavour of the vowel it goes to /j/,
/w/ or /@/ (shwa). The way "eu" tastes to me is most like German ö
shading to /w/ at the end.

> What do the Dutch speakers think? How would you
> describe/transcribe it?
See above :-)

> Are there regional differences in how it is
> pronounced?
Doubtlessly, but I've never thought about regional differences in
*that*.

> 3. This devoicing of /z/ to /s/. All the Dutch speakers I've heard
> have pronounced z as /z/. However, I've only been personally to
> Belgium, never to the Netherlands; my experience hearing Dutch
> speakers from the Netherlands is limited to broadcasting (TV and
> radio
> presenters/newsreaders). I was wondering how widespread this
> devoicing is. Someone (I think Maarten, perhaps?) said that in his
> speech /z/>/s/ intervocalically; does that mean that /z/ remains /z/
> word-initially? Or does /z/>/s/ everywhere? Or does it vary from
> region to region?
It's a northern/western thing. I was born in Haarlem (mid-west) and I
live in Deventer (mid-east) and my /z/ in everyday speech (i.e. not
when I'm reading aloud or speaking carefully) only differs from /s/ in
that /s/ is tense and /z/ is lax. This may sound like voicing to some
people, but I don't think there is any.

The same goes for /f/ and /v/.

> I know that Afrikaans has lost /z/ completely; they
> only have /s/. I'm curious whether this happened after Dutch was
> established in S. Africa, or whether the Dutch settlers who brought
> the language there already spoke like that, i.e. did they come from a
> region of the Netherlands where /z/>/s/?
I think they may have, but I can't be sure (Maarten?)

> Any answers/ideas/suggestions will be appreciated, as well as your
> patience with an interested American trying not to maul your
> language!
Well, come over and listen! :-)

   Irina

--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin.          http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beginnen can ick, volherden wil ick, volbringhen sal ick.

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