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Re: OT: Dutch pronunciation questions

From:Irina Rempt <irina@...>
Date:Tuesday, May 7, 2002, 19:20
On Tuesday 07 May 2002 17:33, you wrote:
> Dag, Netherlandophones! Hoe gaat het?
Goed!
> 1. The diphthong ij/ei. Textbooks always say this is /ej/ (or usually > say something along the lines of "like ay in day") but it never > sounds like that to me; to my ear it sounds more like /æj/ (sorry, > don't know X-SAMPA; I hope the characters come out).
I say [Ej]...
> I heard or read > once that some people now even say /aj/.
...but my daughters, six and eight, say [Aj], as do many of their teachers (women in their mid-twenties). It's shifting, as it has already in Danish. I've given up correcting them, but I still make fun of them.
> 2. Eu. This was mentioned in an earlier thread, I think, but I > couldn't figure out the X-SAMPA. Textbooks always say it's a simple > vowel, describing it as being like French eu or German ö. But it > always sounds like a diphthong to me, though I can't figure out > exactly what it is, so I can't transcribe it. I just hear more than > one sound there.
Almost all Dutch vowels, especially long(ish) ones, have some measure of diphthongization. Depending on the flavour of the vowel it goes to /j/, /w/ or /@/ (shwa). The way "eu" tastes to me is most like German ö shading to /w/ at the end.
> What do the Dutch speakers think? How would you > describe/transcribe it?
See above :-)
> Are there regional differences in how it is > pronounced?
Doubtlessly, but I've never thought about regional differences in *that*.
> 3. This devoicing of /z/ to /s/. All the Dutch speakers I've heard > have pronounced z as /z/. However, I've only been personally to > Belgium, never to the Netherlands; my experience hearing Dutch > speakers from the Netherlands is limited to broadcasting (TV and > radio > presenters/newsreaders). I was wondering how widespread this > devoicing is. Someone (I think Maarten, perhaps?) said that in his > speech /z/>/s/ intervocalically; does that mean that /z/ remains /z/ > word-initially? Or does /z/>/s/ everywhere? Or does it vary from > region to region?
It's a northern/western thing. I was born in Haarlem (mid-west) and I live in Deventer (mid-east) and my /z/ in everyday speech (i.e. not when I'm reading aloud or speaking carefully) only differs from /s/ in that /s/ is tense and /z/ is lax. This may sound like voicing to some people, but I don't think there is any. The same goes for /f/ and /v/.
> I know that Afrikaans has lost /z/ completely; they > only have /s/. I'm curious whether this happened after Dutch was > established in S. Africa, or whether the Dutch settlers who brought > the language there already spoke like that, i.e. did they come from a > region of the Netherlands where /z/>/s/?
I think they may have, but I can't be sure (Maarten?)
> Any answers/ideas/suggestions will be appreciated, as well as your > patience with an interested American trying not to maul your > language!
Well, come over and listen! :-) Irina -- Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina Beginnen can ick, volherden wil ick, volbringhen sal ick.

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Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>