Pronouncing new sounds in new languages

Christophe jorolluju:

"Now I hope that Daniel will have understood that the two sounds transcribed
by <y> and <u> in Uusisuom may sound very different for him, but for some
people, actually for more than 3/5 of the world's population... they just
sound the same, and that it's no use claiming the contrary. You cannot fight
the truth."

I understand the word 'truth' to mean an objective truth, something based on
fact rather than supposition. You may not be able to fight truth, but
supposition in my book is fair game!

Just because two sounds may sound very similar to a person's ear does not
automatically make those two sounds 'the same'. They are two different
sounds, they are two distinguishable sounds. Granted, it may take time and
effort for learners of Uusisuom to master these two sounds and the
difference between them, but did not I have to master certain new sounds
when I learned French and German at school? I certainly did not say to my
French teacher ' Excusez-moi, this 'r' is not how we say it in English,
therefore I won't accept that it is a valid sound and will not attempt to
learn how to say it.'

It amuses me that a lot of the people who are opposed to IALs are those same
people who argue that English should be universally accepted as the
international language. But as Christophe has already pointed out, after
more than 10 years of study, he still finds certain basic words in English
difficult to pronounce. Now if English, with its various flaws,
irregularities, strange sounds (and yet as many as 1-1.5 billion speakers
worldwide) can be suggested as an IAL, why not the vastly simpler and
regular Uusisuom?

My French is not perfect, but I think the 'y' sound in Uusisuom is very
similar to the 'u' sound in the word 'lune'. I also realised yesterday that
the 'u' sound in Uusisuom is very similar to the 'u' in the Italian word
'pUnto'. In short, the 'u' sound is shorter and more 'tense' than the 'y'.

I'm planning to record some Uusisuom and put it up as sound files on the
net. Hopefully this will be a great help to learners of the language.

Finally, even if 'only' 2/5 of the world's population are
comfortable/confident to learn Uusisuom, that still means up to 2.4 billion
speakers of Uusisuom (wow!)

Regards,
Daniel
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/uusisuom

'Uusisuom - kohta halomaale'





----- Original Message -----
From: "Christophe Grandsire" <christophe.grandsire@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: sending mail to the list


En réponse à SuomenkieliMaa <suomenkieli@...>:

>
> I guess I can give you a very rough idea of how to say
> Vya:a:h properly.  (1) say English "view" but with the
> initial "i" sound, (2) say "rat" in a very New Yorkish
> "a" & draw it out, (3) expell a puff of air for the
> playful "h".  Voila!  Vya:a:h!
>
> Any better, Christophe??
>
Well, I'm gonna explain this once and for all: I am a native speaker of
French
living in France! First, it means that most explanations that have to do
with
how something is pronounced in a certain dialect of English are irrelevant
with
me, as I don't know what you're talking about. Second, even if I understood
the
explanation, the problem is not here. Whatever the explanation might be,
even if
you pronounce the sounds at my ear, there are some sounds I cannot produce,
whether because I cannot tell them apart from other sounds I know (it's the
case
with Uusisuom {y} and {u}, and Daniel can repeat as much as he wants that
those
two sounds are very different, to me they are just the same, and it's not
because I don't want to hear the difference, but just because I cannot hear
it.
A hardware problem if you want), or because I can tell them apart, when in
isolation (it's the case with the difference between the {a} in "rat" and
the
{a} in "father"), but I cannot command my mouth to make such different
sounds,
because it has not been trained in doing so.

To tell you how difficult it is for someone to learn sounds that don't exist
in
their native tongues, I will explain something. I've been learning English
for
about 13 years. Yet for the first ten years I didn't even know the {i} in
"sit"
was pronounced differently from the {ee} in "feel", though during all this
time
I listened to a lot of English speaking programs, songs, etc... I just heard
the
same sound in the words "sit" and "feel"! The result was that for ten years
I
wondered why my French-English dictionaries obstinately transcribed
differently
in their phonetic transcriptions what sounded like one single sound to me. I
really became aware of the distinction when I joined the list and learned
about
phonology and the IPA. Suddenly I realized what I had been overlooking for
ten
years. Suddenly I began to hear the distinction, and trained myself to
pronounce
it. Now I can pronounce it easily in isolation or in one isolated word.
Still,
in everyday speech (and believe me, though I still live in France I use
English
everyday), I still confuse the two sounds in my speech, to the extent that I
usually pronounce "bitch" like "beach" and "sit" like "seat". This problem
sometimes leads to misunderstandings between my boyfriend and me when we
talk
together. Now comes the freaky part: in French standards, I am considered as
very good at learning languages, far better than most French people. In
fact, by
French standards I'm considered bilingual French-English.

All this is to tell you that how different two sounds may seem to you, for
people speaking another native language those two sounds may sound like only
one, and this is not a problem of work, of dedication to learn a language
(believe me, I'm very dedicate when I learn languages), or a problem of
understanding explanations. To take a computer comparison, it's not a
software
problem (you change the software and it works) but a hardware problem. My
ears
have not been trained in my youth to differentiate the same sounds as you.
My
mouth has not been trained to pronounce the same sounds as you, and changing
that can be very difficult. It took me ten years to separate the sounds in
"sit"
and "feel". Now I'm working on the difference between the "a" in "rat" and
the
"a" in father. I can now here the difference in isolation, but not in a flow
of
words, and I cannot pronounce correctly the "a" of "rat", even in isolation.
It
invariably comes out as the "a" in "father", although I know what sound I
should
make, and I even know how to put my mouth to make it, I just don't manage to
do
it! Now, I hope that Daniel will have understood that the two sounds
transcribed
by {y} and {u} in Uusisuom may sound very different for him, but for some
people
(actually, for more than 3/5 of the world population, and that's the lower
limit), they just sound the same, and that's it's no use claiming the
contrary.
You cannot fight the truth.

As for the name of your conlang, Vya:a:h, as I've understood, the {y} stands
for
the same sound as {u} in French "lune" (that's to say, kind of trying to
pronounce "ee", but with the lips rounded as if you pronounced "oo"), while
the
{a:} stands for the same sound as {a} in "rat" and "cat". Well, the first
sound
is not difficult for me, I have it in my native tongue. As for the second,
it's
the one I am currently trying to master, and cannot manage to do so. Wait
for
another ten years and I may be able to master it :) . Then I will try to
hear
the difference between {u} in "put" and {oo} in "book", and maybe within
twenty
years I will have finally mastered all the vowels of English :) . Strange,
thinking that it took me hardly more then two months to master the sound
transcribed by {u} in Japanese (an unrounded "oo", like pronouncing "oo"
with
your lips straight as if you were pronouncing "ee"). This sound is as
foreign to
French as the lax sounds of English. I guess it must be the "lax" feature
which
is very difficult to master.

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

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