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Re: More ASCII IPA suggestions ...

From:Carsten Becker <post@...>
Date:Wednesday, February 4, 2004, 15:14
From: "Andreas Johansson" <andjo@...>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: More ASCII IPA suggestions ...

[snipping lots of text]

> IPA doesn't require a tiebar on diphthongs either.
Oh! I always thought there would be one.
> > > > Vowels: > > > > > > | i y i\ u\ M u > > > | I Y I\ U\ U > > > | e 2 @\ 8 7 o > > > | @ > > > | E 9 3 3\ V O > > > | & 6 > > > | a &\ A Q > > > > Huh? [M] was a voiceless [m], wasn't it? > > I'm fairly certain I've not assigned any signs for voiceless nasals -
they've
> not got any IPA signs, and are quite rare (as phonemes, at any rate). > Voiceless 'm' would be [m_0]. You may be thinking of [W] as the voiceless > equivalent of [w].
Damn, I haven't had that chart at hand.
> > > > > For tone, I don't have any improvements on CXS to suggest ATM.
However, if
> > '<' > > > and '>' are freed up, I'm thinking they could be used to enclose tonal > > info. > > > Eg, [ma<TMH>] would be the syllable "ma" with an obnoxious extra > > high-mid-high > > > contour tone on. Since ! and ^ have been hijacked, it would also allow
us
> > to > > > use <!> and <^> for downstep and upstep. > > > > Yay! No numbers from 1-5 anymore which don't make tone clear I think -
at
> > least *I* never knew which one belongs to which tone. <TMH> etc. are a
good
> > idea (although not nice looking and more at the Kirshenbaum end) because > > English QUERTY keyboards AFAIK do not support directly typing ^, ´ and ` > > over letters, do they? > > No idea (pretty much never use the "real" QWERTY, but the Swedish variant > thereof, or German QWERTZ), but that's of little interest, since this
scheme
> is supposed to be ASCII-compatible, and thus does not use accented
characters. Huh? Where was my brain when I wrote that? I wanted to say that those <> do not look nice (as you also say below). In normal text I've seen accents used for indicating tones, I just wanted to add that when 100% ASCII compatibility is required, using accents wouldn't be possible either - and English keyboards AFAIK, there are no accent keys anyway.
> > The < > strings doesn't look good (and can go horribly wrong in html
mail -
> yet another reason to send in plain text!), but X-SAMPA/CXS [ma_T_M_H] > certainly isn't cute either. >
Agree. But I guess there's no other possiblity. And as has been said somewhere on this list before, Sampa is not thought to look nice, but merely to be functional.
> > Other possibilities > > to "enclose tonal info" could be using horizontal dashes: |TMH|,
although
> > these could be easily mixed up with [I]'s and [l]'s, > > The pipe is already used for minor groups anyway.
I forgot that.
> > > ¨ centralized (did not seem to be any reason not get rid of the > > > underline) > > > > The trema requires typing in an ALT+0000 combination. Not possible on > > QUERTY/QUERTZ at least. And remember, English and other languages have
no
> > <ä>, <ö> or <ü> (in Swedish <y> nevertheless) and thus do not require
keys
> > for those letters. Btw, <ë>, <ÿ> require ALT combinations in every case
on
> > English, German and French keyboards. > > Ack, that should've been a quotation mark, not a trema: > > " centralized > _" breathy voiced > > You seem, however, to operate under the misapprehension that you'd get any > real diacritics in this scheme - even with the trema, you'd got [e¨], not
**
> [ë], for a centralized [e].
OK then. No real diacritics (Anyway, getting a "0" or something like that on a letter with plain ASCII is absolutely impossible!). I'm so stupid sometimes :(
> > And how is this scheme supposed to be called? JX-SAMPA (Johansson's > > X-Sampa)? BTW, what does SAMPA stand for? X- is "extended" AFAIK. > > Well, I've not thought of that. 'JXS' should be of tolerable length and > opacity, I think.
:) Carsten