Re: Religious bigotry [was Re: Chris, Chris and Chris]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Thomas R. Wier wrote:

> Quoting Patrick Dunn <tb0pwd1@...>:
>
> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 bjm10@CORNELL.EDU wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> > >
> > >>> Then why did His followers die for their beliefs? (Puzzled frown.)
> > >>> People don't die for what they know to be a lie. (It was documented
> > >>> by the Romans that eleven of the twelve apostles were brutally
> > >>> martyred.)
> > >>
> > >> Christians are always saying this.  I wonder if they believe it.
> > >
> > > Oddly enough, as a Christian, I don't recall having ever said that.
> > > Maybe you are just leaning on prejudice rather than reality.
> >
> > "Always" in English can mean "quite frequently."
>
> If that's the case, then the onus was on you to be clear
> so as not to let what you write offend others.
Oh, nonsense!  I don't have to define every word I use; the overly
sensitive will be offended by my non-Christianity no matter what.  Keep in
mind, incidently, that I actually left a religious organization that was
important to me because it became anti-Christian; if you're going to
accuse someone of bigotry, you'd be better off accusing a bigot of it.

> > Contrary to what you've decided to believe, I have nothing against
> > either Christianity or Christians.  I do have something against
> > feeble and self-satisfied attempts to convert people to a religion
> > on the basis of logic.
>
> If this is the case (and I will take you at your word that it
> is), then it had the unfortunate side-effect of offending
> others on this list.  Chris' attempt to "prove" the validity
> of the Christian side of the argument may have been naive and
> misguided, but that did not justify the broad generalization
> that you used. There are upwards of two billion people on this
> planet that associate themselves with some form of Christianity,
> and to treat them all with such disdain and condescension
> ("I wonder if they believe it"), as if they all had the same
> ignorant understanding of the world around them, truly merits
Did I say "I wonder if all Christians believe it?"  No.  I said I wonder
if the Christians who *say* that believe it.  They might.  I wonder.  They
might also be lying.  So?  You know, some Christians do sometimes lie
about things.  If you're offended by that, well, that's a pity, but it's
not my fault.

> the suspicion of religious intolerance, bigotry and ignorance
> that others seem to have formed of you.  Ignorance, both willful
They formed this prejudgement not because of anything I said or did, but
because I argued against a "logical" argument for Christianity.  BTW,
there are arguments for Christianity that I accept, such as "I have no
logical reason for believing the way I do, but I do believe it strongly
and with all my heart."  I wouldn't argue that.  It's not an argument; but
when someone sets up an argument, with warrents and presuppositions and
all those gee-gaws that make an argument an arguement, someone, Christian
or no, will come along and rip it down.

So those who think I'm a bigot seem to be the ones making the
prejudgements, deciding that because I'm non-Christian I'm therefore
anti-Christian.  Pot, this is kettle: you're black.

> and otherwise, is a human failing to which you, and I, and
> everyone on this list is subject, and to go around pointing
> out that someone has a speck in their eye raises the question
> of whether there is a beam in your own. No one here is questioning
> your right to criticize the arguments others may make; what's
> being criticized is the manner and the assumptions that you
> are invoking to do so.
Those assumptions are in your own mind; don't tell me what my assumptions
are.  As for my manner, I treat ideas worthy of respect with respect, and
silly ideas with derision.  Perhaps ideas are more important to me than
you're used to.

Hey, maybe *I* was offended by someone telling me that all non-Christian
religions are illogical!  Give me a medal!  I was offended!

Sometimes, my culture makes me ill.

> And that will be my last post on the subject. I hope
> we will all move beyond our common failings and get
> on with conlanging.
One can hope.

And maybe people will stop using this list as a platform for religious
cconversion.

--Patrick