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Re: Religious bigotry [was Re: Chris, Chris and Chris]

From:Patrick Dunn <tb0pwd1@...>
Date:Wednesday, December 19, 2001, 22:25
On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Thomas R. Wier wrote:

> Quoting Patrick Dunn <tb0pwd1@...>: > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 bjm10@CORNELL.EDU wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Patrick Dunn wrote: > > > > > >>> Then why did His followers die for their beliefs? (Puzzled frown.) > > >>> People don't die for what they know to be a lie. (It was documented > > >>> by the Romans that eleven of the twelve apostles were brutally > > >>> martyred.) > > >> > > >> Christians are always saying this. I wonder if they believe it. > > > > > > Oddly enough, as a Christian, I don't recall having ever said that. > > > Maybe you are just leaning on prejudice rather than reality. > > > > "Always" in English can mean "quite frequently." > > If that's the case, then the onus was on you to be clear > so as not to let what you write offend others.
Oh, nonsense! I don't have to define every word I use; the overly sensitive will be offended by my non-Christianity no matter what. Keep in mind, incidently, that I actually left a religious organization that was important to me because it became anti-Christian; if you're going to accuse someone of bigotry, you'd be better off accusing a bigot of it.
> > Contrary to what you've decided to believe, I have nothing against > > either Christianity or Christians. I do have something against > > feeble and self-satisfied attempts to convert people to a religion > > on the basis of logic. > > If this is the case (and I will take you at your word that it > is), then it had the unfortunate side-effect of offending > others on this list. Chris' attempt to "prove" the validity > of the Christian side of the argument may have been naive and > misguided, but that did not justify the broad generalization > that you used. There are upwards of two billion people on this > planet that associate themselves with some form of Christianity, > and to treat them all with such disdain and condescension > ("I wonder if they believe it"), as if they all had the same > ignorant understanding of the world around them, truly merits
Did I say "I wonder if all Christians believe it?" No. I said I wonder if the Christians who *say* that believe it. They might. I wonder. They might also be lying. So? You know, some Christians do sometimes lie about things. If you're offended by that, well, that's a pity, but it's not my fault.
> the suspicion of religious intolerance, bigotry and ignorance > that others seem to have formed of you. Ignorance, both willful
They formed this prejudgement not because of anything I said or did, but because I argued against a "logical" argument for Christianity. BTW, there are arguments for Christianity that I accept, such as "I have no logical reason for believing the way I do, but I do believe it strongly and with all my heart." I wouldn't argue that. It's not an argument; but when someone sets up an argument, with warrents and presuppositions and all those gee-gaws that make an argument an arguement, someone, Christian or no, will come along and rip it down. So those who think I'm a bigot seem to be the ones making the prejudgements, deciding that because I'm non-Christian I'm therefore anti-Christian. Pot, this is kettle: you're black.
> and otherwise, is a human failing to which you, and I, and > everyone on this list is subject, and to go around pointing > out that someone has a speck in their eye raises the question > of whether there is a beam in your own. No one here is questioning > your right to criticize the arguments others may make; what's > being criticized is the manner and the assumptions that you > are invoking to do so.
Those assumptions are in your own mind; don't tell me what my assumptions are. As for my manner, I treat ideas worthy of respect with respect, and silly ideas with derision. Perhaps ideas are more important to me than you're used to. Hey, maybe *I* was offended by someone telling me that all non-Christian religions are illogical! Give me a medal! I was offended! Sometimes, my culture makes me ill.
> And that will be my last post on the subject. I hope > we will all move beyond our common failings and get > on with conlanging.
One can hope. And maybe people will stop using this list as a platform for religious cconversion. --Patrick