Re: irregularities

very interesting, you know more than me :-)
i just pasted the description of my grammar lecture i got,
and it tells nothing about irregular verbs,
either this distinction is rather picky and thererefor not mentioned
in my book or its only used and known in other countries.

regards,
c.s.

SC> ----- Original Message -----
SC> From: claudio <claudio.soboll@...>
SC> To: <CONLANG@...>
SC> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:21 AM
SC> Subject: Re: irregularities


>> hi !
>>
>> weak verbs keep the stem-vowel in all the three forms:
>> Infinitiv,Präteritum,Partizip Perfekt.
>>
>> strong verbs dont keep the stem-vowel in all the three forms:
>> Infinitiv,Präteritum,Partizip Perfekt.
>>
>> "bringen - brachte"
>> and
>> "denken - dachte"
>>
>> are both strong verbs for me.
SC> But they have a dental ending.  These very verbs are
SC> put in Class I weak verbs in Old English, and their umlaut
SC> is explained by their dropping of the middle front vowel in
SC> the preterite and past participle.  So they appear to have
SC> features of both strong and weak verbs; but their basic
SC> status as "weak verb" is indicated by the dental ending.

SC> Strong verbs do not employ the dental ending and feature,
SC> as I say below, the ablaut change (alteration of the stem vowel
SC> the tenses):  risan, ras, rison, risen for "rise."  That's why we
SC> have a distinction today in English between past participles
SC> that end in "-en" instead of "-ed," and why we have a clatch
SC> of "irregular" verbs like "write, wrote, written" as opposed
SC> to "perform, performed, performed."  "Help, helped, helped"
SC> used to be strong, but it has become weak, hence "regular."
SC> Some verbs have reacquired an  "irregular" or (strong)
SC> formation, like "dive, dove, dived."  Others say "dive, dived,
SC> dived."  Very few say "he has doven" into the pool.  But I
SC> have heard weak verbs of the think/thought variety acquire
SC> a "strong" participle ending:  "I had boughten the hat at
SC> Macy's."  My room-mate used to say that.  "Buy, bought,
SC> boughten."  Also, "I oughten to have gone."  I've also heard
SC> "I had broughten."

SC> Sally Caves
SC> scaves@frontiernet.net



>> i heard nothing about "irregular" verbs, perhaps its a synonym for
>> strong verbs?
>>
>> regards,
>> c.s.
>>
>> AJ> Sally Caves wrote:
SC> Somebody else wrote the immediate following:

>> >> > If I remember my numbers correctly, English has 168 irregular verbs.
SC> And
>> >> > those are just the ones we use *now*. There are all sorts of archaic
>> >> > irregulars that are no longer used but heavily attested.
>> >> >
>> >> > My favorite irregular series in English:
>> >> >
>> >> > think-thought
>> >> > bring-brought
>> >> > buy-bought
>> >> > work-wrought (the old usage)
>> >>
>> >>Some of these are actually curious formations of the *weak* verb.
>> >>Thencan /thohte are what they call "verbs without middle vowels."
>> >>They are Class I weak verbs that show ablaut change in the
>> >>preterite and past participle but because of the change of
>> >>c/g before d to "ht" they exhibit a modified version of the
>> >>dental ending.
>> >>
>> >>You know, "irregular" verbs is a modern concept.  These
>> >>verbs, with the exception of the above, were made from
>> >>Germanic "strong verbs," the prevalent form then (with
>> >>ablaut change to express the preterite and PP).  Weak
>> >>verbs, which became our "regular" verbs, were the ones
>> >>formed by a dental ending.  By analogy, a lot of our strong
>> >>verbs went weak:  "helpan, healp, hulpen, holpen" -- help
>> >>helped helped.
>> >>
>> >> > I like them primarily because they are so transparently cognate with
>> >>German:
>> >> >
>> >> > denken-dachte-gedacht
>> >> > bringen-brachte-gebracht
>> >> > (kaufen and arbeiten are no longer part of the series)
>> >>
>> >>Because of the same formation in proto-Germanic.
>> >>
>> >> > I think that I'll add a web page about irregular verbs in English and
>> >> > German when I've got the time.
>> >>
>> >>Hope this information helps you.  It would be best to talk
>> >>about strong and weak verbs rather than "regular" and
>> >>"irregular."
>>
>> AJ> Hm, when I read German (approx 1995-2000), we were taught to refer to
SC> verbs
>> AJ> like _denken_ and _bringen_ as "irregular". The term "strong" was
SC> reserved
>> AJ> for verbs like _kommen_ and _helfen_ (that keep the stem consonants
>> AJ> unchanged in inflected forms).
>>
>> AJ> What were our Germans on the list told about this in their schools?
>>
>> AJ>                                                   Andreas
>> AJ>
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>>
>>
>>
>> regards,
>> c.s.
>>
>>   "it's harder to simplificate complex things
>>    - without losing a a piece of meaning -
>>    than complicating simple things."
>>



regards,
c.s.

  "it's harder to simplificate complex things
   - without losing a a piece of meaning -
   than complicating simple things."