Re: reformed Welsh Spelling [to: Ray Brown]

On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 10:06 PM, Robert Jung wrote:

> Ray Brown,
[snip]

> /a/ is written |a|, and /a:/ is written |aa|.
So basically |â| to be replaced by |aa|

>
> |ae| and |ai| may be distinguished.
Good.

> Old |au| is then written |ai| or |au|, depending on region.
This solution must surely also mean that current |u| will be
written as |i| in the south. Bad IMO - the advantage of the
current orthography is that it is independent of regionalisms.

> Spelling old |ch| as |x| gets rid of any confusion between |ch| as [tS]
> or something else,
er - what else?  And [tS] is not a Welsh sound; it is found only in odd
borrowings,
from late modern English.

> and keeps with the one-sound-one-letter-rule system;
But the Welsh, like the Spanish, reckon |ch| as _one_ letter.  In any case,
if you're retaining it for [tS], the one-sound-one-letter rule breaks down.

> it doesn't really matter about |x| being confused with [ks] seems really
> ridiculous.
I'm sorry - but I really do not see how my observation that |x| might
confused with
[ks] is any more ridiculous than you're claim that |ch| might get confused
with [tS] -
less so in fact.  At least /ks/ actually occurs in *Welsh* words.

But you have me utterly confused. I assumed from the proposed respelling
of Welsh
|f| = /v/ and |ff| = /f/ as |v| and |f| respectively was to bring them in
line with
the common usage in other languages.  I can see no other reason for the
change.

But now, when I observe that:
- |x| most commonly has the sound /ks/ (or /gz/) among nations that use
the Roman
alphabet
- I cannot think of any that use |x| to represent /x/ (there may be the
odd one -
but it's a rarity)
- I can think of several in central Europe that actually do use |ch| as /x/
therefore: Wouldn't it be less confusing to stick with the current Welsh
usage of
|ch|?

I fail to see what is ridiculous.

[snip]

> Old |ei| is now |yi| (since |y| is /V/. Please ignore the 'strange'
> spelling. I know it seems as such, but as long as it works, it's fine
> with me.)
>
'Tis strange - but admittedly logical.

> Old |ey| is now |yi| or |eu|. (I hope I'm interpreting [1(] as the right
> sound, one of the old |u| pronunciations).
>
It's the IPA barred-i, i.e. high, unrounded central vowel, rather like the
Russian bI.

But, surely, in your scheme that'd be |yi| or |yu| according to region.

But these spelling are rather counter-intuitive - those ignorant of Welsh
would
surely assume [ji] and [ju].

|ei| is traditional and don't the Dutch pronounce their |ei| much the same
way?

> Then |eu| is written as either |yi| or |eu|(?).
>
See above.

> |f| and |ph| may be distinguished, if it's absolutely necessary.
I suppose not absolutely necessary - but people seem to find it helpful.

> But I didn't know |ph| and |f| differ during mutations.
>
Oh yes - |ph| occurs _only_ as the spirant mutation of /p/, e.g.
pen "head", ei phen hi "her head".

|ff| _never_ suffers mutation and is the spelling of /f/ in all other
environments.


>
> |oe|, |oi|, |oy| are then distinguished, if you insist. But |oi| and |oy|
>  merge into |oi|.
>
*I* don't insist.  It's those darn people who actually speak the language
- they
won't pronounce them all the same.  It makes life tough for spelling
reformers.

> |ow| is now |yw| (= [Vw]).
Logical.

[snip]

> > > w=/V/ û, /u/ ûû, /w/ w
> > Eh??  The "new spelling" confuses what is pretty clear in
> > the current spelling!
> >
> > |u| and 'clear' |y| = [1(:)] in north Wales and [i] in south
> > Wales.
> > 'obscure' |y| is [V]
> > |w| as a vowel is *always* [u(:)] and as a semivowel is [w].
>
> Please explain [1(] and [u(]'s pronunciation - I've never seen 'em before.
Nor me. The bracketed long marks are merely shorthand; by [u(:)] I meant
"[u] and [u:]".

The sound [1] is explained above.

> > I notice there is no corresponding proposal to distinguish
> > between |i| as a vowel and |i| as a semivowel.
>
> There's no need. Only in diphthongs is there needed /j/, and |i| suffices;
Is the initial |i| in 'iaith' really the first part of a rising (and
falling)
triphthong?  It's surely the semivowel /j/?  It's the way I've always seen
it
analyzed.

> and even rising diphthongs are OK: those without a ¨ are diphthongs,
> those with one ain't diphthongs. Quite OK to me. But if you want, |j| is
> used. (Ignore the [dZ] pronun., then.)
I certainly don't want it.  I was merely making the observation that
whereas you seem
propose to replace current Welsh |w| with |û| = /u/, |ûû| = /u:/ and |w| =
/w/, you
hardly want to touch |i| which also does duty for three different sounds.

I agree the present spelling with |i| causes little trouble - but then
much the same
can be said about |w|.  In any case, hell will freeze over long before you'
d ever
persuade the Welsh to abandon their use of |w| as a vowel. They rather
like it as it
makes their language that bit different   :)

[snip]
>
> > Personally, I don't see the point of tinkering around with a
> > more or less phonemic spelling - certainly not to make it
> > less phonemic.
> >
> > If ever a spelling cried out for a more phonemic approach
> > it's English! But I don't see what this has got to do with
> > conlanging.
>
> It was an experiment; I just wanted to see what people would think.
It wouldn't go down well in Wales. When I lived there, they were fond of
pointing
out to me the (near) phonemic spelling of Welsh and contrasting the bizarre
spelling of my native language.

> And I'll give you an English spelling reform if you like - I've already
> written it! :)
I wrote many as a teenager, and the odd one or two since  - but the
difficulty is using the Roman letters more or less as other nations do and
yet not to hopeless mangle the Greco-Latin part of English.

Reform of English spelling has been one of the regularly recurring OT
subjects on
this list.  It would be interesting to compare it with others.

Reforming Gaelic spelling is interesting (tho I don't imagine the Irish or
Scots
would go along with any of our proposals).  It has been observed by some
that Cyrillic
would be a more suitable alphabet for that Gaelic langs.


Ray
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