Re: laterals (was: Pharingials, /l/ vs. /r/ in Southeast Asia)

Javier BF wrote:
> Then it's a flaw of the design principle of
> the IPA alphabet, because that alphabet is used
> not only for phonemic transcriptions, but also
> and very frequently for phonetic transcriptions
> that are meant to tell the reader how a sound
> actually sounds and not just what phoneme it
> belongs to in a certain language.
Except that you have the problem of having to compromise somewhere.  If
you made a separate character for every possible distinction, you'd have
to have thousands of characters.  :-)  Using "actually distinguished in
a known language" is a useful compromise.

> Besides, what are the raising and lowering
> diacritics doing in the IPA chart, then? Is there
> a language that contrasts e.g. a raised [e] with
> a lowered [e] and with [E], so that the raised and
> the lowered ones cannot be transcribed phonemically
> as /e/ and /E/? What about [r\] and [l\], is there
> a language where all the repertoire of rhotics for
> which the IPA provides a symbol are contrasted?
Not every rhotic, certainly!  But, as far as I know, any given pair you
can find some language that distinguishes those two.

> Why having symbols for the alveolopalatal
> fricatives at all, is there a language where those
> contrast with palatalized [S] and [Z]? What about
> the symbol for simultaneous h and sh, [x\], is
> there a language where it contrasts with [S]?
It's quite distinct articulatorily from both /S/ and /x/.  It is odd to
have a special symbol, tho, a tie-bar with /S/ and /x/ would be more
logical.

> All laterals consist of a blocking of the central
> area of the mouth (by means of raising the central
> part of the tongue) while the airstream is released
> laterally (by means of creating an opening at the
> side(s) of the tongue). What distinguishes a lateral
> approximant from a lateral fricative (and from a
> lateral stop and a lateral affricate) is the
> degree of _lateral_ closure, not the degree of
> _central_ closure. If there is no central blocking
> of the airstream during the production of the lateral
> sound, be it at the alveolar, palatal, velar or
> uvular area, and thus the air is allowed to flow
> in any way (plosively, fricatively, approximantly
> or affricately) through the central part of the
> mouth as well as through the lateral part, the
> sound is no longer a true lateral, but things
> like a "stop with lateral release" (which is not
> the same as a lateral stop).
But, I fail to see how you can have a "lateral stop" otherwise.  If the
sides of the tongue are raised completely, thus blocking the airstream,
then what's the difference between that and a regular stop?  And in a
stop with lateral release, there *is* central blocking.  If there
wasn't, it wouldn't be a stop!  Laterals contrast by lateral closure and
non-laterals by central closure, but how can there be a contrast when
you have complete closure in both parts?

In other words
Lateral approximate: central closure + little or no lateral closure
Non-lateral approximate: No central closure + lateral closure

Lateral fricative: Central closure + moderate lateral closure
Non-lateral fricative: Moderate central closure + lateral closure

Lateral stop: Central closure + lateral closure
Non-lateral stop: Central closure + lateral closure

> Most taps/flaps and trills _are_ plosive, whether
> they are 'counted' as "plosives" or not. Castilian
> Spanish -rr- is nothing but a quick succession of
> alveolar d's, that is, a quick succession of alveolar
> stops.
I wouldn't call it that!  It's produced completely differently.  -rr- is
not produced by raising and lowering the tongue in rapid succession, but
by the airstream causing the tip of the tongue to vibrate.  A tap would
make sense to call a very brief stop, altho given that many languages do
distinguish between taps and stops, it seems logical to distinguish
them.

> English r is
> usually an apico-postalveolar approximant-flap,
Approximant-flap?  What's that mean?  How can something be both a flap
and an approximant?

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