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Re: OT: Semi-OT: Romance Comparisons

From:Tamás Racskó <tracsko@...>
Date:Tuesday, April 27, 2004, 8:25
[Finally, I've got the missing digests, so I'm able to answer the
postings on the weekend]

On 23 Apr 2004 Roger Mills <rfmilly@...> wrote:

> Interesting-- could it have to do with ancient Celtic and/or later > Germanic influence (the Langobardi)?? Perhaps the southern idioms > ("Eastern characteristics") are what Western Rom. would have > looked like without the Germanic influx?? Just speculating.......
Bartoli sais that the intervocalic voicing (and then their possible elision) of the voiceless plosives is due to the Celtic substrate, cf. Lat. ripa > Rom. ri^pa(, It. ripa ~ riva*, Dalm. raipa; but Rhaet. riva, Fr. rive, Prov.- Port. riba, Sp.-Cat. riba. * It. ripa (in phrase "uccelli di ripa" 'wading birds, grallatores') comes from he Southern, while riva from the Northern dialects. See also duce 'leader' ~ doge 'head of Venetian State' etc.
> > b. Imperfect (Imperfectul) < Lat. ind. praeteritum imperfectum > Here clearly amo - amabam, dico - dicebam et al.
Yes. Rom. ziceam < *ziceBam < Lat. dicebam
> > c. Simple Past (Perfectul simplu) < Lat. ind. praesens > >
> Would these be the amavi - debui- dixi etc. forms?
Yes. Rom. zicui < *dicui (on the influence of debui) < dixi
> > e. Pluperfect (Mai mult ca perfectul) < Lat. conj. praet. > >
> My knowledge of the terms is rusty. Which Lat. forms?? amavissem, > dixissem etc?? That's the tense that most often survives, rather > than amaveram, dixeram etc.
It's the preterite of perfect subjuctive, i.e. Lat. dixissem > *dicuissem > Rom. zicusem. [ In Rom. data i^ = i-caron, a( = a-breve, and B = voiced bilabial fricative (as a historical phoneme) ]