Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)

Rob Haden wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:10:01 +0000, R A Brown <ray@...>
[snip]
>>In his "An Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language", Alexander
>>McBain gives the etymon of the Celtic forms as *n=ss.
>
>
> Is that a syllabic /n/?  If so, why is the whole form zero-grade?
That is what I understand McBain to mean.

>I'm
> assuming that the IE etymon (if there was one) would mean 'not (something)'.
I assumed it was not of IE origin, but came from otherwise unknown
western (or central) European source. But McBain is silent on this. He
does quote someone called Strachan who suggested that it was derived
from *eni-sti^ [sic] meaning "in-standing" - but I find that
unconvincing and so, I think, did McBain.

[snip]
>>Now, I am not an expert in Celtic etymology, so I cannot tell how sound
>>McBain's etymology is. But if he is correct about *n=ss, then there is
>>no problem with the Latin form as far as I can see.
>
>
> Where did the medial vowel in the Irish and Welsh forms come from?
Presumably it was originally an epenthetic vowel but, as I wrote, I am
no expert on Celtic etymology. But a similar thing seems to happen with
the word for 'mountain':

>
>>What I find less convincing is relating this stem to the Greek forms
>>that I cited in my last mail.
===================================
Rob Haden wrote:
 > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:10:01 +0000, R A Brown <ray@...>
[snip]
 > Found them. :)
 >
 >
 >>Some people connect the Celtic & Latin forms also with the ancient Greek
 >>/na:sos/ or /nE:sos / (according to dialect; the modern Greek is
/nisos/).
 >
 >
 > I suspected that's what you meant before I knew for sure.  The Greek
forms
 > seem to go back to *nexsos, if from a root *nexs-.  Now interestingly
 > enough, the IE root for 'nose' is very similar, if not the same:

I have seen them related to PIE root for "swim" also, but your etymology
is easier as regards the sound changes, I think.

 >
 > Latin _na:ris_ (< *na:sis) 'nostril', _na:sus_ 'nose' (however, we
should
 > expect _na:rus_ here, so this may be a loanword (from Greek?))

Um - the vowel is OK, as the earliest Latin borrowing from Greek were
from the Doric dialect (spoken in southern Italy) which preserved /a:/.
But the meaning is against it, I think. The meaning 'nose' had long been
forgotten by the Greeks (whose word for 'nose' was _rhis_ (gen:
_rhinos_)). I suspect it is from a Italian dialect form.

 > Greek _na:sos_ / _ne:sos_ 'island'
 >
 > Sanskrit _na:sa:_ 'nose'
 >
 > English _nose_ < Old English _no:su_ 'nose', possibly _snore_ if from
 > *sna:re
 >
 > German _Nase_ 'nose'
 >
 > Russian _nos_ 'nose'
 >
 > All of these forms seem to point to an IE root *nexs- (> *na:s-).
However,
 > some descendants show a short vowel (Germanic, Slavic) and others a long
 > one.  Reconciling these different 'grades' has been an ongoing problem.
 > Anyways, it seems to me like the word for 'nose' could be metaphorically
 > extended to mean 'island' (after all, they often look like "noses" of
land
 > poking up out of the water).  Then with a feminine diminutive, we'd get
 > *nxsláx > *nslá: 'little nose'.  Add the sound changes from IE to
Latin and
 > we should get _insula_.

Interesting theory. I wonder if McBain's *n=ss could be cognate also.
Interesting that, like Greek, the Celtic langs do not retain a
derivative of *nexs- to denote 'nose'.

Breton: froan
Welsh: ffroen
Gaelic & Irish: sròn  (sro`n)

These are apparently derived from a Proto-Celtic *srogna-
The Breton and welsh words mean 'nostril' rather than nose. the normal
welsh word for 'nose' is _trwyn_ (Cornish _trein_), and the Breton is _fri_.

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Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY