Re: WHAT calendar for the current year 2012
|From:||Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>|
|Date:||Thursday, January 31, 2008, 21:18|
2008/1/31 R A Brown <ray@...>:
> Cf. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο.
> Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
> 'Matterhorn' names the mountain and I think should come between the
> article and the noun; therefore, I would write the first part thus:
> Το «Μάττερχορν» όρο «Μάττερχορν» το εν Ελβετίο.
I presume you mean Το «Μάττερχορν» όρο το εν Ελβετίο without the
Are category-name pairs always in the order article-name-category,
then? "Mount Foo" is the only example that comes to mind immediately,
but what about, hmm, Lake Powell? "Το Παύελ λίμνο"? (Hm, what about
capitalisation - is it "lake Powell" or "Lake Powell"?) "Το Ναιάγρα
> 1. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο.
> Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
> Most of this has already been commented upon; as for the names, I see no
> reason why the Germanic name 'Matterhorn' should not exist in WHAT and
> the TAKE spelling is fine.
> Possibly Josephos Peanou (JP) would have derived the TAKE form of Andrew
> from Greek (because that's where name comes from), in which case we'd
> have Ανδρέο
What's the TAKE policy on "nativising" names?
My guess was that no alteration is made and that names are simply
transcribed as well as possible -- much as, for example, we write
Eduard Shevardnadze and Mikhail Gorbachev, not Edward and Michael. And
Mr Bossi, living in Anglophonia (possible the Enou Basileio, possibly
the Enou Politeio or elsewhere) as he does and speaking Anglish, would
presumably have been christened Androu and not Andreas.
I suppose things might be different for TAKEists in WHAT who might
consciously adopt a TAKEised form of their name for use when speaking
that language (much as, say, an Esperantist *here* might adopt an
Esperantised form of his name for use within the community), but for
Joe Average -- who might not even speak TAKE -- it would seem odd to
me to TAKEise the name.
On the other hand, it's possible that TAKE speakers tend to me more
"aggressive" at nativising names (if an obvious equivalent can be
found) than English speakers. (Even English speakers do this with some
names, e.g. Benjamin Netanyahu rather than Binyamin.) If so, though, I
wonder whether this applies only to cognate names or whether they'd
also translate names, thus making e.g. a Πήτερ Μύλλερ from Germania
into a Πέτρο Μυλώνο (as opposed to the
nativise-cognates-but-don't-translate form Πέτρο Μύλλερ or the plain
transcribed form, which isn't necessary in this case since Germania
uses the Greek alphabet already, but which might be an option e.g. for
someone from India).
Perhaps you could ask JP for clarification on his policy on rendering
names of non-TAKE-speakers.
> 2, Το πύργο «Αίφελ» εν το Παρί εν το Γαλλίο.
> Φωτογραφίο εκ το Κριστίν
> Σέλεκ Τρεμουλή.
> I'm sure Παρί is not the correct form - remember, there'd have been no
> French in WHAT!
D'oh! Yes, I fell into that trap a couple of times.
> I note in Modern Greek it is Παρίσι which I assume is a demotic form of
> Katharevousa Παρίσιον. Therefore - assuming that a city with a similar
> name to Paris existed in the Gaul of WHAT (and that some guy called
> /ajfEl/ built such a structure there) - the TAKE form will be Παρίσιο.
I also wondered whether it might be Λουτέτιο, from the Latin name
Lutetia (the things reading Asterix teachers you...).
> 3. Το πύλο εκ το Βράνδενβουργ εν το Βερλίν εν
> το Γερμανίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ
> το Ματίας Ζίγμουνδ.
> Το εκ Βράνδενβουργ πύλο or perhaps have an adjective derived from
> Brandenburg, e.g. Το Βρανδενβουργικό πύλο
> (Assuming there is a Brandenburg Gate in WHAT :-)
> Assuming that there was a Berlin in WHAT and that it was the capital of
> Germany, I feel sure JP would think the city worthy of having a
> Hellinized form of its name,i.e. Βερλίνο
Modern Greek is Beroλίνο, so perhaps I'd take that one. (And Latin is
apparently Berolinum, at least according to Wikipedia, which would be
another point in favour of the medial -o-.)
> 5. Το μικρό ναιάδο εν το Κοβενχάμν εν το
> Δανίο. Φωτογραφιο εκ το Άλπερ
> Yes, ναϊάδο should, as you observed in another email, have the diaeresis
> if it's properly derived from ancient Greek, i.e. it is tetrasyllabic
> /na.i.'a.da/ rather than trisyllabic /naj'ja.da/. I'm certain JP
> would've insisted on it :)
> The μν at the end of Κοβενχάμν seems to me unlikely to have been
> retained in TAKE. In any case, I thought the Danish was København.
Quite so -- I had mixed it up with Swedish "Köpenhamn" again.
> 7. Το ναό «Το Άγιο Οικογένειο» εν το
> Βαρκελώνα εν το Ισπανίο. Φωτογραφιο
> εκ το Χ. Σαλμοράλ
> Βαρκελώνα looks a 'spelling loan' so to speak.
Yes. I was influenced, no doubt, by Modern Greek Βαρκελώνη. But yes, a
pronunciation respelling is clearly superior, especially since Ispania
uses the Greek alphabet anyway.
> But on checking I find that the ancient name of the place
> as given by Roman authors was _Barcino_ (gen. Barcinonis) and in Greek
> authors as Βαρκινών (gen. βαρκινῶνος) in Greek. Knowing JP's fondness
> for using the ancient forms as the basis for TAKE, I fee sure he would
> give the name as Βαρκινώνο.
> (The modern Catalonian/Spanish name shows the normal change of Latin
> short /i/ to /e/. I assume the -lon- is dissimilation to avoid repeated
> /n/ in -non-)
That makes much sense. So, the city's name is essentially "Barcinona"
[would that be the accusative in Latin?] + sound change?
> 9. Το Γέφυρο εκ το Πύργο εν το Λόνδον εν το
> Ένου Βασίλειο. Φωτογραφιο εκ
> το To have Υ. Χ. Λαν.
> Tut, tut - Βασίλειο would come from βασίλεια (final short -a) "queen."
> 'Kingdom' was βασιλεία (final long -a).
Modern Greek misled me here -- it's βασίλειο. Well, according to my
dictionary, "Königreich" can be either βασίλειο or βασιλείο, but the
UK, for example, is Το Ηνωμένο Βασίλειο.
Should have checked my Ancient Greek dictionary.
> 10. Το βασίλειο εν το Φαδούτς εν το
> Λίχτενσταιν. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Μίχαηλ
> Doesn't look much like a queen to me :)
I went by my AG dictionary, which gave τα βασίλεια for "Schloss" (and
has "Palast, Hof" as some meanings of the substantivised adjective το
> But 'castle' - we can't borrow from Latin _castellum_ as there's no
> Latin in WHAT! However, the ancient word φρούριον will do nicely for
> Schloss or 'castle'; and this will be φρούριο in TAKE.
This is probably better in order to avoid the homophony, even if το
βασίλειον/τα βασίλεια were licit.
> Presumably Βηάτ /be'at/ is his surname (How's it spelled?)
Exactly the way you did :) His name is "Michael Beat", which I first
took for Μαίκλ Βίτ, but who is apparently Swiss so I presumed a
pronunciation of Μίχαελ Βηάτ.
"Beat" is a typically Swiss-German male given name (though the
feminine form "Beate" is also used in Germany), though I suppose in
WHAT the name would not exist, since as far as I can tell, it's from
Latin "beatus". I imagine the photographer's WHATish _alter ego_ might
carry the family name Μακάρ or something like that instead, from the
common Elvetic male given name of the same form.
I think I shan't make that change in my calendar, though -- I'll treat
it as the name of someone from a parallel dimension, where a language
spoken in a backwards part of Italia took over western Europe and gave
its roots to some people's names. (Plus that'll make it easier to
comply with the Attribution clause of the Creative Commons licences of
the images than if I start "sanitising" names with Romance elements
that "shouldn't" exist, in which case I would presumably also have to
add the "standard" version of the name anyway.)
> I hope these observations have been helpful.
Indeed; thank you!
Though I'd appreciate a clarification on the transcription-vs-adaption
policy for foreign proper names.
> But the Calendar is a fine piece of work :)
Thank you kindly!
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>