Re: WHAT calendar for the current year 2012
|From:||R A Brown <ray@...>|
|Date:||Thursday, January 31, 2008, 4:36|
Philip Newton wrote:
> On Jan 29, 2008 1:59 AM, Henrik Theiling <theiling@...> wrote:
>> Yes, I think so too: it is lovely! Very nice work!
> Thank you!
>> Philip, was it easy to write the picture capture texts?
> Easy to type the Greek letters? Yes.
> Producing something that I hoped was valid TAKE, though, wasn't
> trivial! Especially since it's not my language, so I can't just make
> stuff up and declare it to be valid.
I well understand that - especially when the language hasn't been
published in full!
> I made some guesses for words based on my knowledge of Modern Greek
> and the help of a German<->Ancient Greek dictionary; I think most of
> the TAKE nouns are probably acceptable. I can imagine the syntax might
> be off .....[snip]
> I'm also not sure whether placenames would be nativised or not, and
> ended up doing so only for the countries but not for the cities. (The
> effect for a TAKE speaker might be as if I had written "London,
> Royaume-Uni" in French, though, rather than "Londres".
OK - here goes. I had thought of sending this off-list. But it occurred
to me that some others might be vaguely interested in TAKE and like to
know my thoughts .....
Philip Newton wrote:
> On Jan 28, 2008 9:36 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:[snip]
The comments below apply to the revised version (with accents), not the
first version. The main problems, as Philip has said, are (a) syntax,
and (b) place names.
I'll deal with (b) individually; but it will be useful to say something
about syntax generally. This BTW has focused my mind on the use of the
definite article before proper nouns - so it's been a useful exercise.
Let us consider: Το Παρθενώνο εν το Αθήνο εν το Ελλάδο
The prepositional phrases εν το Αθήνο (in [the] Athens) and εν το Ελλάδο
(in [the] Greece) are adjectival in function, therefore if they are
placed after the noun of which they are attributes, the noun's definite
article should be repeated before the phrase, i.e.
Το Παρθενώνο το εν το Αθήνο το εν το Ελλάδο
(One could also in theory have: Το εν το εν το Ελλάδο Αθήνο
but the double embedding of attribute phrases IMO makes that
unacceptable, and I will consider that version no further.)
Even the first version feels somewhat clumsy because of all the definite
articles. This prompted me to consider more closely the use of the
definite article before proper names both in Attic and Hellenistic Greek
(the sources of TAKE). The grammars as somewhat hazy, e.g.
"Proper names may take the article; as ὁ Σωκράτης or Σωκράτης,
_Socrates-." ['Greek Grammar', Goodwin]
Not exactly helpful!
Consulting the Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon was more useful. It is
often omitted before names, or nouns used as names, which require no
specification because they are so well know. Interestingly, while ὁ
βασιλεύς is used more or less like "the king" in English, when the
Greeks referred to the King of Persia (The Shah, the King of Kings,
_the_ King) they invariably had just plain Βασιλεύς. It is used before
names to call attention to an earlier mention of the name.
It is usually omitted if some special designation follows it, e.g.
Σωκράτης ὁ φιλόσοφος 'Socrates the philosopher'. One interesting fact I
discovered that Aristotle invariably just has Σωκράτης if he is
referring to the actual historical character of 5th cent Athens, but ὁ
Σωκράτης if he is referring to the Socrates portrayed in Plato's dialogs.
On looking on the Internet, I found little help other what Goodwin says
in his grammar. However, one of the slightly more helpful sites did have
"Sometimes with a noun which the context proves to be definite the
article is not used. This places stress upon the qualitative aspect of
the noun rather than its mere identity. An object of thought may be
conceived of from two points of view: as to identity or quality."
This, I think, is helpful. Let us go back to 'The Parthenon in Athens in
Greece.' Are we placing emphasis upon the qualitative aspect of Athens,
e.g. that it is in Greece and not an Athens in the USA? I think not. We
are surely doing no more than identify where the Parthenon is. Nor, i
think, does Greece specifically require an article here. Therefore, let
Το Παρθενώνο το εν Αθήνο το εν Ελλάδο
Even this seems to me a little awkward with the repetition of το εν -
better, I think, is:
Το εν Αθήνο Παρθενώνο το εν Ελλάδο
Obviously this applies throughout, so I will not draw attention to it on
individual entries. Anyone following this far is surely able to make the
changes her=/himself. Two other small points of syntax.....
Cf. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο.
Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
'Matterhorn' names the mountain and I think should come between the
article and the noun; therefore, I would write the first part thus:
Το «Μάττερχορν» όρο «Μάττερχορν» το εν Ελβετίο.
As for the second part, εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι presumably is genitival, i.e.
it's one of Andrew Bossi's photographs. The books don't seem clear about
phrasal attributes attached to indefinite nouns, so this probably OK.
However, one could also have:
Φωτογράφιζε υπό το Άνδρου Βόσσι - 'Photographed by Andrew Bossi'.
As for the article before Άνδρου Βόσσι, I think in this instance use is
OK - now comments on individual points, mainly names, month by month.
1. Το όρο «Μάττερχορν» εν το Ελβετίο.
Φωτογραφίο εκ το Άνδρου Βόσσι.
Most of this has already been commented upon; as for the names, I see no
reason why the Germanic name 'Matterhorn' should not exist in WHAT and
the TAKE spelling is fine.
Possibly Josephos Peanou (JP) would have derived the TAKE form of Andrew
from Greek (because that's where name comes from), in which case we'd
2, Το πύργο «Αίφελ» εν το Παρί εν το Γαλλίο.
Φωτογραφίο εκ το Κριστίν
I'm sure Παρί is not the correct form - remember, there'd have been no
French in WHAT! Quite how a Gallic Helleniclang would look, I'm not
sure. But the English is not a spelling pronunciation, as is often
ignorantly supposed, but is derived from the French pronunciation at the
time of borrowing! Final -s was once sounded.
I note in Modern Greek it is Παρίσι which I assume is a demotic form of
Katharevousa Παρίσιον. Therefore - assuming that a city with a similar
name to Paris existed in the Gaul of WHAT (and that some guy called
/ajfEl/ built such a structure there) - the TAKE form will be Παρίσιο.
We'll assume, for the moment, that Gaul retained its ancient named and
didn't get renamed after the Franks :)
Christine, would probably have been given by JP as Χριστίνο.
3. Το πύλο εκ το Βράνδενβουργ εν το Βερλίν εν
το Γερμανίο. Φωτογραφίο εκ
το Ματίας Ζίγμουνδ.
Το εκ Βράνδενβουργ πύλο or perhaps have an adjective derived from
Brandenburg, e.g. Το Βρανδενβουργικό πύλο
(Assuming there is a Brandenburg Gate in WHAT :-)
Assuming that there was a Berlin in WHAT and that it was the capital of
Germany, I feel sure JP would think the city worthy of having a
Hellinized form of its name,i.e. Βερλίνο
As 'Matthias' is derived from Greek, I'm sure JP would have preferred
Ματθίο (but foreign names are always pesky things, languages IME tend to
be inconsistent about their treatment).
4. Το Παρθενώνο εν το Αθήνο. Φωτογραφιο εκ το
This has already been commented upon, so let's move on (I don't think JP
would have done 'Wally Gobetz' any better ;)
5. Το μικρό ναιάδο εν το Κοβενχάμν εν το
Δανίο. Φωτογραφιο εκ το Άλπερ
Yes, ναϊάδο should, as you observed in another email, have the diaeresis
if it's properly derived from ancient Greek, i.e. it is tetrasyllabic
/na.i.'a.da/ rather than trisyllabic /naj'ja.da/. I'm certain JP
would've insisted on it :)
The μν at the end of Κοβενχάμν seems to me unlikely to have been
retained in TAKE. In any case, I thought the Danish was København. I am
minded that the element _hafnium_ is named from a Latin 'Hafnia'
(Copenhagen). The Modern Greek form is, I guess, derived from the French
'Copenhague' which, of course, is no use in determining the TAKE form.
Assuming that Copenhagen is there in WHAT (with its little mermaid), and
having consulted JP by transference of thought from a parallel universe,
I can now pronounce that he names is Κοβεγχαφνίο :)
6. Το κλίνε πύργο εν το Πίσα εν το Ιταλίο.
Φωτογραφιο εκ το «**Μέρι**».
Maybe Πίσα should be left as is - hopefully it has nothing to do with
ancient Pisa in Elis, Greece ;)
7. Το ναό «Το Άγιο Οικογένειο» εν το
Βαρκελώνα εν το Ισπανίο. Φωτογραφιο
εκ το Χ. Σαλμοράλ
Βαρκελώνα looks a 'spelling loan' so to speak. Should one not rather
have Βαρσελώνα (but, before someone suggests it, no, not Βαρθελώνα -
such a blatant Castellianism would surely offend its native
Catalonians). But on checking I find that the ancient name of the place
as given by Roman authors was _Barcino_ (gen. Barcinonis) and in Greek
authors as Βαρκινών (gen. βαρκινῶνος) in Greek. Knowing JP's fondness
for using the ancient forms as the basis for TAKE, I fee sure he would
give the name as Βαρκινώνο.
(The modern Catalonian/Spanish name shows the normal change of Latin
short /i/ to /e/. I assume the -lon- is dissimilation to avoid repeated
/n/ in -non-)
8. Το «Ατόμιο» εν το Βρυξέλλο εν το Βέλγιο.
Φωτογραφιο εκ το «Οδ Βοδ».
This is where I gave up last evening: Brussels - assuming it is there in
WHAT and that it is bilingual!
Even forgetting any upset one cause the Flemings of Belgium, one cannot
simply use the French name as there would be no Romancelang called
French in WHAT!
I find the name is derived from an earlier 'Broekzele' (Marsh home), and
and early 8th cent Latin form 'Bruocsella' seems to occur. Having
consulted JP, he affirms that in WHAT the early Greek form of this same
name was Βρουξέλλη and that in TAKE it is Βρουξέλλο.
(He also muttered something about pesky bilingual names).
9. Το Γέφυρο εκ το Πύργο εν το Λόνδον εν το
Ένου Βασίλειο. Φωτογραφιο εκ
το To have Υ. Χ. Λαν.
Tut, tut - Βασίλειο would come from βασίλεια (final short -a) "queen."
'Kingdom' was βασιλεία (final long -a). So let's amend the UK to το Ένου
Βασιλείο (and we shall need to keep the article).
The Romans called it Londinium, so the Greek form would be Λονδίνιον,
and therefore the TAKE form would be Λονδίνιο.
Το Γέφυρο το εκ το Πύργο το εν Λονδίνιο το εν
το Ένου Βασιλείο - is a
bit of a mouthful. I suggest making 'Tower' an adjective, and writing:
Το εν Λονδίνιο Πυργικό Γέφυρο το εν το Ένου Βασιλείο
10. Το βασίλειο εν το Φαδούτς εν το
Λίχτενσταιν. Φωτογραφίο εκ το Μίχαηλ
Doesn't look much like a queen to me :)
This is "Schloss Vaduz" or "Vaduz Castle", tho as Vaduz is the name of
capital of the principality εν το Φαδούτς is OK here - and the article
perhaps should be kept as Vaduz is somewhat less well known than, say,
Paris, London or Berlin!
But 'castle' - we can't borrow from Latin _castellum_ as there's no
Latin in WHAT! However, the ancient word φρούριον will do nicely for
Schloss or 'castle'; and this will be φρούριο in TAKE.
I think Vaduz is probably better in genitive relationship to 'castle' as
the castle is not actually in the town but rather higher up. May be:
Το εκ το Φαδούτς φρούριο το εν Λίχτενσταιν.
'Michael' in both Greek and TAKE is Μιχαήλ.
Presumably Βηάτ /be'at/ is his surname (How's it spelled?)
11. Το «Πύργο εκ το Βεθλεέμ» εν το Λισβόα εν το
εκ το Οσφάλδο Γάγο.
The name 'Lisbon' (Port. Lisboa) is derived from ancient _Olisipo_ (gen.
Olisiponis), which would be Ὀλισιπών (gen. Ὀλισιπῶνος) in the Greek of
WHAT. I am sure JP would have Ολισιπώνο in TAKE.
The name 'Portugal' is apparently derived from Latin _Portus Cale_, the
latter being a native, non-Roman name. Therefore the modern name of the
country cannot be anything like 'Portugal' in WHAT! The Greek for 'port'
(harbor) is λιμήν (gen. λιμένος). If a comparable formation had occurred
in WHAT, I guess the name would have been something like Λιμενοκαλία,
i.e. Λιμενοκαλίο in TAKE. (The problems of alternate histories)
12. Το Πανεπιστήμιο εκ το Άγιο Τριάδο εν το
Δούβλιν εν το Ιρλανδίο.
Φωτογραφίο εκ το «Ματπίβ».
Yes, I think Δούβλιν is better than the earlier version. It might have
been Hellenized in TAKE as Δούβλινο.
Ptolemy gives Ἰουερνία, from which JP derived the TAKE Ιουερνίο - which
is a little closer to the Irish name for the country: Eire (gen. Eireann
I suggest: Το εκ το Άγιο Τριάδο Πανεπιστήμιο το
εν Δούβλιν(ο) εν Ιουερνίο
I hope these observations have been helpful.
But the Calendar is a fine piece of work :)
Entia non sunt multiplicanda
> Done: http://conlang.wunschzetel.de/whatcal-screen.pdf
- only 260 kB,
> a 13th of the original filesize, and still more-or-less decent image
> I also fixed a couple of mistakes such as missing accents, and added
> some city and country names.
> (There's also a new full-size version, under the same filename, with
> the same fixes, but the screen version is probably fine unless you're
> planning to print it out and hang it on your wall.)