Re: How to Make Chicken Cacciatore (was: phonetics by guesswork)

TM> Well, whether a distinction is easy to hear or not depends on your
TM> experiences.

JMW> If by 'experiences' you mean 'languages you know', then I fully agree.

TM> I find [e] and [I] pretty obvious, but [I] and [i] is beyond me...

That surprises me coming from an English - or at least Down-Underish -
speaker.  I suppose in your 'lect the distinction between "bit" and
"beat" is solely one of length?

JMW> :) To me, [I] and [i] is pretty obvious, whereas the difference between [I]
JMW> and a French or German /e/ is beyond me.

Well, "the difference between [I] and /e/" is not a meaningful phrase;
[I] could very well be the realization of /e/ in some 'lect of French or
German.  You're mixing apples and oranges. :)

If you mean the difference between [I] and [e], then I think that's
strange; it seems like a much clearer distinction than [I]/[i] or
[E]/[e] or even [I]/[E].    If you meant the latter, then I can
understand the confusion more readily.

JMW> Of course, the sign of [e] could
JMW> rather represent the vowel of English <pet> (which I perceive clearly
JMW> different from [I] and from [E])

In my 'lect of English (and in 'Murkin generally, though of course
not all 'Murkin dialects), the vowel of |pet| is exactly [E]. I think
that is true of RP as well.  So I'm confused - in what variety of
English is the vowel of |pet| clearly different from [E]?  I thought
most Englishes had [E].  They might be missing [e], realizing /e/ as
[E:] or [Ej], rather than (as in my 'lect) [ej], but I hadn't heard of
an [E]-less English.


> The babies' ability to distinguish doesn't surprise me much. What surprises
> me is the speakers inability to distinguish. I suppose that the same tests
> as with the babies were made with grown up speakers, too?
Oh, yes, quite conclusively.  For instance, in a study of well-educated,
well-prepared and well-practiced Japanese adults, the vast, vast
majority, in the vicinity of 99% IIRC, could not hear the change when a
speaker slowly and carefully went from saying [la la la la] to saying
[r\a r\a r\a r\a].

_Marcos

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