Re: How to Make Chicken Cacciatore (was: phonetics by guesswork)

--- Paul Bennett <paul-bennett@...> wrote:
>
> The problems with this (which you yourself seem to
> gloss over as if
> they'll magically solve themselves as long as nobody
> looks directly at
> them) are, first picking the twelve lucky languages
> (which could easily be
> the work of a lifetime, to identify twelve languages
> with are both widely
> known, and which between them show all the sounds of
> the IPA),
As I said, one could imagine different grids for
different uses and purposes. I would suggest a
general-purpose grid including the 12 most used
languages in the world (thus, Mandarin Chinese
included, of course) and an European grid including 12
representative European languages (of course, there
would always be somebody arguing that HIS language is
more representative, but it should be possible to come
to an agreement). Then we would have specialized grids
when needed, for ex, for Scandinavian languages and
dialects. I have a dictionary at home entitled "16
langues pour voyager". It gives the usual
correspondances of some hundred words in 16 European
languages. Nobody says this is perfect. Albanian,
Irish Gaelic or Catalan, for ex, are not included. But
the book exists and I can use it.

>and second
> dealing with dialectical differences. I, for
> instance, know enough French
> to know what a nasalised vowel sounds like, but
> could not tell you the
> difference between a Parisian and a South-Western
> French <r> without
> seeing it written in IPA, which would probably also
> require more than a
> few seconds' searching on the Internet.
So the examples would teach you that, and if you
wanted more information about this particular point,
you'd search for it. Even if you can't imagine the
difference, you would at least know that there is one,
and in real life, not in theory.

> You suggest that anyone willing to learn the IPA
> should first master
> several dialects of a dozen languages. I propose
> that the easiest way to
> do so, would be to learn the IPA beforehand rather
> than afterwards.
>
IMO, the main goal of an IPA is to give an image of
what really exists and is really used, and not of what
perhaps could exist somewhere (although is also could
be of interest, especially for conlangers). My main
problem, when reading a foreign word, is : "how should
I pronounce this in order to be understood by natives
?" And it would help me very much if I had an example
saying, "well, it's about the same as sound "x" in
word "y" in language "z". If this very example
wouldn't help me, because I don't know this language,
I might find another example in some of the 11 other
languages mentioned, in case there is a
correspondance. I of course wouldn't need to master
all of the examplifying languages, but the more of
them there would be, the more chances I would have to
get it. Then I would look with interest to the
scientific definition of the phoneme, to its IPA
representation, and to the computer code I am supposed
to use, supposing I needed it.

Sure, this is all a lot of work, and should probably
be a collective one, with the help of many people
speaking different languages.

About the use of diacritics (mentioned in other
messages): I wonder how the chart designers decided
when a phoneme has to be considered as a variant (thus
using diacritics) and when it is a phoneme of its own,
requiring a special line in the chart. Sure, one had
to decide. But my idea of grouping the phonemes by
families could, IMO, help: you would start from the
most general and then get, if needed, to the most
particular (arborescence). If you don't care for the
difference between French and English "t", then you
stop at the level you like (it is perfectly possible
to get understood by English people pronouncing the
"t"s the French way). If you care, then you go
further. It's just a question of presentation, it
doesn't change anything to the IPA itself.

(BTW, there is another pronunciation for French "t",
used in Quebec and in French "difficult suburbs": it
sounds somehow like "tju" (French writing).



=====
Philippe Caquant

"High thoughts must have high language." (Aristophanes, Frogs)


	
		
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