Re: CHAT: Nov 11th

>
>At 1:07 am -0800 17/11/99, Gerald Koenig wrote:
>[....]
>>Without
>>communication there is boundless demonization of the other.
>
>A shared language does *NOT* mean communication - it means the demonization
>of one side by the other is clear to the other side, i.e. I actually know
>you're calling me names, I no longer merely suspect it.
>
Hi Ray,
Aside from the crushing weight of historical conflicts, we seem to be
discussing here the effects of language on human relationships in
general, down to the one on one level. Conlangers describe in detail the
structure of relationships in our imagined worlds, and I assume that
those worlds are desired worlds. And the language is a big part of it.
The ability to communicate is crucial to a relationship. It doesn't have
to be through a common natlang, it can be invented, even telepathic.
Communication can transcend language. But it is also deeply obstructed
without language.

In the absence of communication with another person we have to guess at
their internal states, motivations and ideation. There is nothing to
prevent us from projecting the worst upon them, serving the purpose of
getting rid of our own demons, without the possibility of refutation.
And there are degrees of communication blockage, ranging from a refusal
to listen, a relentless skepticism, a boredom, on the listening side;
to a laziness, an inability or unwillingness to tailor the message to
the listener, on the speaking side. So yes, "A shared language does
*NOT* mean communication". It only means the possibility of
communication. Communication only takes place when both sides are
willing and able to exchange feelings and points of view. It is the
function of language to facilitate that exchange as much as possible. I
never said and I never meant that sharing the worlds best language,
natural or artificial, would ensure communication.

In cases of sustained mutual hatred, cultural or individual, I believe
there is always an element of communication blockage that is essential
to the maintainence of the state hostility. Communication threatens
illusions about the other. Perhaps there exist situations where perfect
mutual knowledge of one another coexists with perfect hatred and
comtempt. That is how I interpret your position. I hope I misunderstand.
If there are many such persons or cultures then I would say we are doomed.

I am engaged in fashioning a better language. The most I ever expect
from it in my wildest dreams is that it potentiate communication and
reduce the net misunderstandings we all share. Most people here just use
their conlangs to improve internal communication, I share that as well.

Well that is part of what I mean when I say:

Jerry |                                 Without careful communication
Gerald Lea Koenig | jlkatnetcomdotcom   There is boundless demonization.
-----------------------------------------------------
>Good grief - have we learnt nothing from conflicts in Northern Ireland and
>other even more bloody civil strife elsewhere!