Re: TAKE 2nd verb page updatedc

Philip Newton wrote:
> On 11/1/07, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
>
>>As I wrote the use of the definite article instead of a relative pronoun
>>is found in Homer & some dialects.
>
>
> Is Homer using the definite article instead of a relative pronoun?
Yes, but it is an occasionally use in Homer & not the norm.

>Or
> is he using a relative pronoun, which is one the way to becoming a
> definite article but hasn't completed the process yet, so it's still
> available for its original use?
No.

> IIRC, the Greek definite article was originally a relative pronoun.
No. the definite article was originally a _demonstrative_ pronoun. In
Homer it is normally used as a demonstrative or as a personal pronoun, e.g.
τὴν δ' ἐγὼ οὐ λύσω - I will not free her
τοῦ δὲ κλύε Φοίβος Ἀπόλλων - Phoebus Apollo heard him
(Remember ancient δὲ is "but" - not the modern δε(ν)   :)

In Homer it used before participles and adjectives when these are used
as nouns, just as in classical Attic Greek. But with noun it is more
often a demonstrative in apposition to the noun, e.g.
  ἡ   δ' ἀέκουσ'   ἅμα τοῖσι γυνὴ   κίεν
she but unwilling with them woman went =
But she, the woman, went with then unwillingly

The relative pronoun was derived from a different source. The Homeric
use of the article was followed by later tragic and lyric poets. In
Herodotus we find that he generally used the definite article rather
than the relative pronoun in the oblique cases. Some dialects used the
definite article as a relative also.
>
>>εἰς τὸν τόπον τὸν ὁ Θεὸς σὲ ἔδωκεν
>>into the+ACC place the+ACC the+NOM God you gave
>>into the place which God gave you
>
> That sounds like Thessaloniki Greek :) In northern Greece, they merged
> dative into the accusative rather than into the genitive as in the
> standard language.
I know - but I don't know the origin the quote above, except that it's
medieval. I don't know how the accusative/genitive divide went in the
Middle Ages.

--
Ray
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