Re: Celtic word for "tree"

On Wednesday, November 10, 2004, at 01:47 , caeruleancentaur wrote:

> I subscribe to the magazine "Parabola."  In an article entitled "The
> Celtic Tree of Life" by Mara Freeman occurs the following
> statement: "That most magical of Celtic trees, the oak, derives its
> Gaelic name (Old Irish "daur", Welsh "derw") from the Sanskrit
> word "duir," which gives us "door."
Nope.

> There are two PIE roots: *deru (with variations) which is the origin
> of the English "tree," and *dhwer (with variations) which is the
> origin of the English "door."  I believe the author of the above
> statement is wrong in deriving the Gaelic word from the PIE root for
> door.
You are absolutely correct. As you rightly note, the tree/oak word has
initial d- in PIE, where the door word has initial dh-. They are clearly
not connected and neither are particularly 'Celtic' since both occur
widely in the IE langs.

OAK/TREE
The Welsh for 'oak' is actually _derwen_, which the singular of _derw_ =
'oaks'. It is common in Welsh for tree names to be plural in meanings,
with the singular (which is always fem.) formed by adding the suffix -en.
the other Brittonic langs are similar:
Breton: dero (oaks), dervenn ( an oak)
Cornish: derwo (oaks [collectively]), derowen (an oak tree), derowennow
([individual] oak trees)

Cornish shows interesting development   :)

It is, as you say, related to the English word _tree_ <-- Old English
_tréo(w)_ and Danish _træ_, Norwegian _tre_ and Swedish _träd_.

It is also related to the ancient Greek word _drus_ (Ionic _drys_), gen.
_druos_ = "tree" (hence 'Dryad') or more specifically "oak tree". Another
ablaut Grade of the same IE stem gave ancient Greek _doru_ (gen. _doratos_)
  = "tree, plank, beam" or more specifically "shaft, spear".

The Sanskrit word connected with this root is _dru_ which, strange to say,
  apparently means "tree". Mara Freeman must have overlooked that one. The
Polish _drzewo_, Russian _derevo_, Sebo-Croat _drvo_ and Bulgarian _durvo_
"tree" are all also obviously cognate.

But according to my dictionary, the Irish for 'oak' is _dair_ (with, I
believe, genitive _darach_) and the Scots Gaelic is _darach_. These show a
stem _dar-_ and this also turns up BTW in the the Welsh alternative plural
forms to the one I gave above, i.e. Welsh _dâr_ (oaks). Some IE words
beginning with d- turn up in Latin with initial l- (e.g. lacrima "tear",
lingua "tongue"); the dar- stem seems to have given us Latin _larix_ (gen.
  laricis [cmpare the Gaelic genitives]) = "larch" which English word is
indeed derived from the Latin    :)

[DOOR]
Had Mara freeman done her [I assume 'Mara' is female] homework better, she
would have discovered:
Irish & Scots Gaelic: _dorus_ = "door"
Welsh: drws, Cornish: _daras_, Breton _dor_ = "door"

But these are derived from PIE words beginning with dh- because:
Germanic - Eng. _door_, Swedish _dörr_, Danish _Dør_, Dutch _deur_, German
_Tür_.
Ancient Greek _thura_ (Attic _thyra_, Ionic _thyre_).

In Proto-Latin [th] became [T] but the proto-Romans had as much trouble as
some folk on this list with the sound and changed it (just as probably the
majority of young urban speakers in Britain have) to [f]. Hence we find
Classical Latin _fore:s_ "doors"   :)

Then of course we have Russian _dver'_, Polish _drzwi_ and Czech _dvéře_ =
"door", as well as Lithuanian _durys_ and Latvian _durvís_. According to
my information the sanskrit is not Ms Freeman's *duir, but _dvār_.

-----------------------------------------------

I am afraid Mara Freeman's 'That most magical of Celtic trees, the oak,
derives its Gaelic name (Old Irish "daur", Welsh "derw") from the Sanskrit
word "duir," which gives us "door.' belongs to the fabulous Celtic
twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason.
IME one of more fruitful sources of the 'twilight of reason' is just such
false etymologies. Robert Graves' stuff is just full of them  {groan}

BTW I note the subject line is 'Celtic word for "tree"' - and we haven't
had the word yet! The closest is the root *k_wrenn-, thus Irish & Scots
Gaelic _crann_ "tree", Welsh & Cornish _pren_ "tree". But it's not the
normal word in Welsh or Cornish. The usual Welsh word is _coeden_
(singular of _coed_ 'trees, wood'). Similarly the Cornish is _gwedhen_
(singular of _gwyth_), and Breton _gwezenn_ (singular of _gwez_).

The 'Celtic' *k_wrenn- is cognate with ancient Greek _kranos_ (fem.) =
"cornel" and Latin _cornus_ (fem) = "cornel".

Ray
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]