Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

PART I.  FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:

>Have you based your conlang(s) wholly or partially on a Celtic language?
>If so, on which?  or combined with which?
Once I wanted to make one, but never made it. It had to be used for a conworld.
Pengailg suited nice enough as a Celtic-like language, so I abandoned Celtic
conlangs.

<snip rest>

PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on inspiration
by Celtic languages):

>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your exposure
>to Tolkien?
Not

>How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or your
>conculture in Middle Earth?
Not

>How many of you have a constructed world,
I have. It is an island as big as a continent.

>and, if so, does it include some of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology?
>(Elves, Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?  Selkies?  Wizards?)
No fantasy creatures.

>How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish because
>of your examination of Tolkien?
I looked up Finnish, because I like(d) the way Sindarin sounds.

>How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture because of
>some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
My influence were Boudewijn and Irina Rempt. I read about them/their hobby and
contacted them (in 1992?). Conlanging looked weird at first. Now I am addicted.

>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you engage in Roll-Playing Games?
Not

>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard of this listserv?
I didn't conlang between 1994 and 1197. Irina mentioned the listserv and I got
hooked again, now for good.

>How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society for
>Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
Not

PART III:  NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:

>In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've
>observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque"
>languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and
>especially the "Celtic."  Why?  Boring?  Overdone?  Trite?  Too pretty?
>Too Western?  Or none of the above--just more interested in something else?
>  I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only
>because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY or a
>DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see some
>eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic,"
>and/or even the Indo-European model.
I never even read Tolkien, just saw the appendix of the Silmarillion.
This coming out feels a bit like cursing!

>What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
Rob Nierse
Conlangs:
* Tlapoa (cross-over of many Amerindian languages, should sound Aztec/Chinook
like; my main conlang)
* Düzgür (the Turkic/Arabic-like conlang; from 1993)
* Gbw`i`a (African-like conlang; two tones, downdrift and downstep)
* and some more that I have no time working on.

>So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging?  Or Tolkien's Elvish?
I don't know. I'm just attracted to Amerindian, African and Pidgin & Creole
languages. And I still want learn more about Papuan and Caucasian languages. So
much more to discover *

>How did you start conlanging?  What was your initial inspiration?
For me, my first conlang was an attempt to create a language with ALL known cases.
It had to have a mediterrean feel, Turkish or Arabic-like.

>Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the appendices?
etc.  Or not?
I read about it on listserv.

>What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
My later conlangs were mainly based on my interest in other languages like
(West-)African languages, Iroquian and other Amerindian languages.
I want to create a language that has the best features of those languages and sounds cool.
For sounds, I'm basically influenced by Náhuatl, Chinook Jargon, Lokono Arawak and a bit Waorani.

>What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
All things that are not found in IE languages :)
Especially :
inverse number,
tones (register tones, not the dull contour tones of Chinese!),
ergativity,
compounding,
redundancy (many grammatical features can be expressed by morphemes, e.g. number, person,
tense, mood, aspect etc.. These morphemes may be dropped all together when
context is clear or seperate words are used.),
The genitive relation between nouns or nominal phrases are expressed by means of a
possessive pronoun adjacent to a posessed noun. Example: o tloko ya-khabo 'the
man his-hand'= 'the man's hand',
Inalienable possession: ya-khabo 'his hand', khabo-ho 'hand'.

>Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had with And
Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
 "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your
conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or copiers
of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?

One language, Ohkwado?ta, was deliberately intended to be difficult to pronounce.

>For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
>language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
Yes, Tlapoa IS beautiful. Definition: Náhuatl

>For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented language?
Very much. See above.

>How many of you invent a non-human language? And if so, how alien are its sounds
>and constructions?
Not

>Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori language?
>In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base it
>closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of
>languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well, scratch?
>(if that can be done.)
My languages are very much based on natural languages. Or else they are no fun to me.

>How many of you invent a language based on a particular type (Ergative,
>Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
Not specifically.

>To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important to you
>in your conlang?  what natural language eccentricities (or efficiencies) do
>you like and try to reproduce?
Irregularity is part of natural languages, so it is incorporated into my langs. This means
I made a parent language simultaneously with Tlapoa in order to introduce the
irregularities.
Besides that I deliberately introduced suppletive forms of the absolutive case of
inalienable nouns:
sikwa 'house', ya-pasi 'his house' ; tloko 'man', ya-wadili 'her man', 'her husband'.

>To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important to your
>conlang? What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
On the other hand I want to be able to speak the language myself, so it has
traits of a Creole language too to make it an easy language for me.

>How many of you invent logical languages?
None

How many of you invent IALs?
None.

>How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European concultures and what are they like?
European cultures are part of my concontinent, amongst others.

>How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
Originally, yes (Düzgür). Still the best way (to remember the words).

>How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
Nowadays. Many words I borrowed from other languages: sikwa is 'house' in Lokono Arawak,
pasi comes from Quechua 'wasi'.

>I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words and your grammar?
(I started out pulling words out of the air.)
In my head I have the idea of how the language should be like (this phase took me 4 years)
Then I write the rules down on paper (this phase took me a week)
Then I write stuff (stories etc.) and have to create words and rewrite grammar
(this will take all my life, I'm afraid)
Wthin a year I want to have a grammar that is fixed. Then I want to write that down
in a special book, with a special pen, and that shall be the starting point of
me learning my language.

PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.

>Why do you conlang?
It's creative.
It is my way to explore natlangs (an excuse to read grammars of langs I don't know yet)

>Who will speak it?
I do

>Read it?
Perhaps in the future people on listserv. No audience is intended. I want to present
the grammar to the Dutch conlangers Boudewijn, Irina, Jan and Christophe during
a conlang meeting.

>What's the point?  What's the beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
All of the above.

>To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a model?  Is
it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is it a
communicable language?
I want to compare it to a drawing or painting.
Sometimes a like nature so much that I make a drawing of e.g. the trees I see.
Sometimes a like languages so much that I make a grammar of the features I see/hear.

>If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
No-one

>To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something that
>pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even for you,
>a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
Surely plays an important part of the fun.

>Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself in
>them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at the same
>time.)
I'm in the culture(s) too when I'm busy with the laguage.

>This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right" to you?
>We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding righter, better
>words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps unanswerable).
SO unanswerable that nowadays I just copy the words I like.
I managed to get a list out of Langmaker that generates words that please me
acoustically. When written in a Spanish way, they please me visually. (So, it
is Aztec-in-the-sixtenth-century like).
I especially like the /tl/ sound, CV structures and ante-penultimate stress.

>How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor plans,
>fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers,
>cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been associated with conlanging
Mapmaking of the continent. Calligraphy.

>How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
Several scripts. One for Düzgür, two for Tlapoa: one official one (inspired by Mayan
Glyphs) and a cursive one (inspired by Hieratic).

>If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing system?
>In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent sounds?
Most sounds are quite straightforward, so I use conventional letters. Even the
letters for the clicks in Gbw`i`a are conventional.
For Tlapoa I like the Spanish way of writing ('hu' for [w] etc.)
>Why?
Looks good and reminds me of, you guessed it, Aztec.

>This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:  how
>many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
Very short stories and poems.

> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that purpose?
Not

>How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have stuck to
>the same >language over many years? Why?
Never stuck. Only Tlapoa, Gbwìà, and a bit Pidgin Gothic are alive in the sense
that I still work on them.

>How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for many
>languages but not sticking with any one for very long?  Why?
Düzgür is fixed. Changes means developing dialects. Tlapoa is becoming more and more
stable. Gbwìà is changing a lot at this moment.

>For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual instrument?
>This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an example.  When I
>first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens, what I wrote were
>spells and prayers.  They had a talismanic quality.  Does that ring a bell
>for anybody?
No bells for me.

>For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its making
>meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my hand).
Never.

>How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your pet?
>child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
Very little in Tlapoa. I want to become more fluent in it (it is my goal).

>How many of you have put up websites where your language can be showcased?
>If so, what is the website address?
Still to come. As soon as the 'paper version' is ready.

>How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of us can
>hear it?  If so, give the site.
Once, Gbwìà, but an obsolete variant.

>How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors, your
>family members about this pursuit?   How many of you have received
>condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure?  (I have.)  Or
>even been called "pathological"?
It is secretive. Even my wife doesn't know (not because is not allowed, language
just doesn't interest her).
Because the mechanics of language are so complex and difficult, I have almost no one
to talk about it. That is why I like listserv!

>If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change?  (On New
>Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand why I would
>be interested in this pursuit.  What purpose could it serve?)
>For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real languages
>than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?  What would be
>your response to such a remark?
I never encountered it, maybe because no one dared to say so in my face.
My response would be: "Yes, it is better to learn real languages. I do that too."
I think I would not start a debate. I just like it. Period. Just like other
people like music and painings (also creative not serving a purpose).


PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:

What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
34
What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a student,
what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is your
intended major)?
I work. I train people communicative skills (sales, how to deal with aggression etc)

What is your gender?
male

What is your nationality and your native language?
Netherlands; Dutch

What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
Speak: Dutch, English, German, French, Spanish, Papiamentu
Speak a little: Portuguese, Basque (Batua), Yucatec Maya, Quichua, Lokono, Chinook Jargon
Studied: Quechua, Waorani, Guaraní, Sranan Tongo, Sechelt (Salish), Mohawk, Náhuatl,
Popoloca, Cameroonian Pidgin, Turkish, Maltese, Modern Greek etc.
>How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your
interest in inventing languages?  Or plan a profession in linguistics?
Not any more

>What have you learned from conlanging?
So many things about languages! Too much to mention.
Well, if I had to make a summary: languages are far more intruiging and different
from eacht other than I thought at first sight.

>What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
your language?
I studied descriptive Linguistics in Leiden (Holland) for four years, so I read a lot of books.

>Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
No

>Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear description
and translation?
Tlapoa:
Tila mo-waya-yathi ((datle) kopa) Takanya
I     make-myself-know book concerning Takanya
'I study book Düzgür (Tarkania)' = 'I study Düzgür'.'

Düzgür:
Bir üy, ayitf ta we a-dver xani töltülela.
One day, man-FOCUS is who he-hate he-POSSESIVE neighbour-ACCUSATIVE
Once there was a man who hated his neighbor.

Gbwia;
ù-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kpè wé ù-gbahlù cwikò ù-tao ù-x'òi kpè mi 7.
They used to look at the richness of the neighbour that breaks the wife's love for her husband.

Pidgin Gothic:
Atza ain guma saei (u)tu galeitza in aljakun landeis.
imperfect there one/a man who perfective travel in foreign land-plural
There was a man who had traveled in foreign lands.


>Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my talk?
>I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you answered.
No

Rob