Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

>On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:10:24 -0500, Sally Caves <scaves@...>
>wrote:
>
>>PART I.  FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>>
>>Have you based your conlang(s) wholly or partially on a Celtic language?
>>If so, on which?  or combined with which?
    N/A



>>PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on
>> inspiration by Celtic languages):
>>
>> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your
>> exposure to Tolkien?
    N/A

>> How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture
>> because of some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
    :) yepyep. I am mainly inspired by sci-fi.

>> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you engage
>> in Roll-Playing Games?
    Does Life count as a RPG 0_o?  ;)

>> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard
>> of this listserv?
    This list continually inspires me to forge on with my conartlang
gomiilego :)

>> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society
>> for Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
    I was a member of the Creative Futures Group till I was kicked out for
constantly razzing on the Libertarian/Ayn Rand-influenced sci-fi fans (the
Campbell-Heinlein crowd) and making fun of H.G. Wells, Asimov and similar
Eurocentric technoculturalists.

>>PART III:  NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>>
>>In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've
>>observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque"
>>languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and
>>especially the "Celtic."  Why?  Boring?  Overdone?  Trite?  Too pretty?
>>Too Western?  Or none of the above--just more interested in something
>else?
>><G>  I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only
>>because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY
>or a
>>DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see
>some
>>eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic,"
>>and/or even the Indo-European model.
>>
>>What is your name and what do you call your conlang(s)?
    Hanuman Zhang (a.k.a. Jonathan Yu-Sam Chang, a.k.a. Czhang[ie], a.k.a.
"Z")
    gomiilego ("junk/trash language")

>>When did you start it/them?
    2-3 years ago (but has gone thru many name, phonological and
morpho-syntactical changes till now...)

>>Are you still working with it/them or have you abandoned it or them?
    Currently hammering out a consistent gomiilego phonology and orthography.
(Soon to be posted!)

>>So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging?
>>Or Tolkien's Elvish?
    Nothin' wrong with either. Just not _entirely_ my cuppa tea. I prefer
chai ;)
Gomiilego - being a mixed language creole - is pretty much a mutant offspring
of Indo-European languages.

>>How did you start conlanging?  What was your initial inspiration?
    Researching IAL's for use in sci-fi and poetry. The "Gutter Speak" in
_Blade Runner_ and neo-Futurist poetry.

>>Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the appendices?
>>etc.  Or not?
    Yepyep.

>>What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
    Pidgins, creoles, mixed languages, IALs, Archaic Chinese, slang,
word-play and puns, James Joyce.

>>What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
    The regularity and "minimalism" as well as the word-play and "linguistic
mutation"/lingua-mangling (manglelang? manglang? *hehe!* mangalang!).

>> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had
>> with And Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
>> "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your
>> conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or
>> copiers of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?
    Not "naturalistic" enuff, mayhaps...

>>For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
>>language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
    Language - if it is naturalistic - has both beauty and ugliness,
efficiencies and insuffiencies. Even conlangs and IALs can not avoid this...
    Then again: one man's meat is another's poison... beauty is in the eye of
the beholder, etc.

>>For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented
>>language?
    Sometimes the familiar can be de-familiarized & thus become strangely
"exotic."
_Otstraneniye_... _Verfremdungseffekt_...

>> How many of you invent a non-human language?  And if so, how alien are
>> its sounds and constructions?
    I am interested in possibly creating a few for sci-fi stories.

>> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori
>> language? In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein
>> you base it closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a
>> combination of languages, and how many others of you invent a language
>> from, well, scratch? (if that can be done.)
    I base most of gomiilego on a combination of natlangs... with some words
made from "scratch."

>> How many of you invent a language based on a particular type
>> (Ergative, Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
    Does pidgin/creole count?

>> To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important
>> to you in your conlang?  what natural language eccentricities (or
>> efficiencies) do you like and try to reproduce?
    Difficulty and irregularity is not something I like to work with (tho' I
admire CG's Maggel and Maggelity in general).

>> To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important
>> to your conlang?
    Accessibility, efficiency, and regularity is somewhat highly important as
I wish to use gomiilego in sci-fi and poetry.

>>   What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
    Non-phonemic orthography (or rather an "[ab]user-friendly spelling
system").

>> How many of you invent logical languages?
    Language is illogically logical ;)

>> How many of you invent IALs?
    Once upon a time, I was a Glosa IAList then an Interlingua IAList.
Nowadays, I rather make a more creative artlang (as to IALs or IAL-like
conlangs, I admire Novial, Zengo and Vorlin more than Glosa or Interlingua
[Esperanto has always struck me as too "amateurish" and inconsistent]).

>> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European
>> concultures and what are they like?
    I have some ideas for a futuristic "paraculture."

>>How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
>>How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
>>I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words
>> and your grammar? (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
    I use tons of language dictionaries and vocabulary lists :) and tons of
books on pidgins, creoles, etc..

>>PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
>>langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
>>
>> Why do you conlang?  Who will speak it?  Read it?  What's the point?
>> What's the beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
>>
>> To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a model?
>> Is it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is
>it > a communicable language?
    "Language is a virus." - William S. Burroughs
    Lingua-mangling and conlanging/glossopoetry is "poetic viral terrorism" ;)

>> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
>
>Somebody who hasn't been innoculated?
    LOL. Lol.

>> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something
>> that pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even
>> for you, a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
>> Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself
>> in them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at
>> the same time.)
    OTSTRANENIYE!!!!!

>> This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right" to
>> you? We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding
>> righter, better words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps
>> unanswerable).
    That is where the Hard-Art part comes into play in conlanging...

>> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor
>> plans, fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders,
>> calligraphers, cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been
>> associated with conlanging.  I've done most of them.)
    Fictive multi-generational spaceship _Anabasis_.

>> How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
    N/A

>> If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing
>> system? In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent
>> sounds? Why?
    Gomiilego is my attempt at an intriguing, idiosyncratic Roman alphabet
orthography that is more-or-less phonemic rather than phonetic.

>> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:
>> how many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
    Gomiilego is still in development ;)

>> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that
>> purpose?
    N/A

>> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have
>> stuck to the same language over many years?   Why?
    N/A

>> How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for
>> many languages but not sticking with any one for very long?  Why?
    N/A

>> For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual
>> instrument?  <SNiP>
    Gomiilego contains quite a few words/concepts from Asian cultures (esp'ly
Sanskrit [Hinduism], Pali [Buddhism] and Japanese Zen).

>> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its
>> making meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving
>my hand).
    N/A

>> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your
>> pet? child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
    N/A

>> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be
>> showcased? If so, what is the website address?
    Gomiilego will have a webspace (prob'ly with Christophe's help).

>> How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of
>> us can hear it?  If so, give the site.
    not yet.

>> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors,
>> your family members about this pursuit?  How many of you have received
>> condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure? (I have.)
>> Or even been called "pathological"?
    *gigglabyte!* Most peeps think it's just part of my overall crazy, weird
personality!!!

>> If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change? (On
>> New Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand
>> why I would be interested in this pursuit.  What purpose could it
>> serve?)
    Wider appreciation of cultural diversity and lifestyles (no coincidence
in my mind that there are quite a number of gays and other "lifestyles" on
this list)... mass media exposure of Tolkien (& earlier _Star Wars_... the
Sci-Fi Channel on cable TV... ad infinitum)...

>> For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real
>> languages than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?
>> What would be your response to such a remark?
    "I might be making some money off it someday like the guy who made up
Klingon. Or at least some fame for my name and my family name..."

>>PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
>>
>> What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
    the human part of me fluxes 'tween 7 and 69 tho I am biologically 38, but
look 23-28-ish (good Cantonese genes, hehe...)
    the TricksterGod Incarnate part of me is ageless...

>> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a
>> student, what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what
>> is your intended major)?
    - Occupation?
    - Resistance.

>>What is your gender?
    huMANoid

>>What is your nationality and your native language?
    nationality: Cantonese-Indonesian, BBC (British-Born Chinaman), currently
in the USA
    native language: educated, British-influenced South East Asian English

>>What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
    academically studied: French, Spanish, German, Italian (mostly for work
in an university music library and for film studies)
    personal interest study of: Bahasa Indonesia/Malay, Archaic Chinese,
Sanskrit/Pali, Bislama, Tok Pisin, Greco-Latin ISV (International Scientitic
Vocabulary), Glosa, Interlingua, Novial, Zengo, Dublex, Vorlin, Ludo,
"Ebonics" and other non-standard and "mutant" Englishes, etc.

>>How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your
>>interest in inventing languages?  Or plan a profession in linguistics?
    N/A

>> What have you learned from conlanging?
    More linguistics than I ever thought possible (once upon a time - not
long ago, I did not even know the difference between a preposition and a
locative! or the differences between phonetic, phonemic and etymological...)

>> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
>> your language?
    EEK!!! I will be writing till me bleedin' fingers ache...

>>Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
>>who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
>>been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
>>that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
    My crazy Russian friend Yuri Mayakovskii who works as a translator (he is
fluent in 37 languages!)  He has been creating a Maggel-like conlang that is
like reaaaally weird phonological mix of Caucasian languages, Bantu click
languages, and "oodles of other 'difficult, pug-ugly' languages like German,
Arabic and Klingon." The syntax of this highly polysynthetic language is
something he calls "free order chronospatial syntax" - whatever that means!
From what I have seen of it, it means entire words and phrases are prone to
morphosyntactical mutation(s) depending on the situation and/or state of
either the subject, object and/or topic. Sentences are heavily dependent on
small phonemic particles and marker words for comprehensive meaning.

>> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear
>> description and translation?
    plii zeno-dzhen, sijb:r-meccano, 'a posii-dzhen com havaa unii cosaa -
dem creaa plii biiz'arraa lego-plezzo con'axii.

/pli: ze.no.dZen saI.b3:`.mek.kan.o @ po.si:.dZen kom ha.va: uni ko.sa:
dem kre.a: pli: bi:z@r\.r\a: le.go.plez:o ko.n@Si:/

PLU xeno-gen, cyber-machine, and poetry-gen together have one thing -
they create PLU bizarre language-plex connexion.

    "One thing foreigners, computers, and poets have in common
is that they make unexpected linguistic associations." --- Jasia Reichardt

    plii homiinoid ezz'a plii zoid, pluz.  os 'aumnii viidaa en dzhiiaa. os
'aumnii ezz'a plii dzhiia-dzhen.

    Humanoids be animals, too. We all life/live in/on Gaia+geo. We all be
gia-gen [earthlings].

>> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my
>> talk? I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you
>> answered.
    :) naa. naa obdzhecxii.

Hanuman Zhang, 3-Toed-Sloth-Style Gungfu Typist  ;)

"the sloth is a chinese poet upsidedown" --- Jack Kerouac {1922-69}

€º°`°º€ø,¸¸,ø€º°`°º€ø,¸¸,ø€º°`°º€ø,¸¸,ø€º°`°º€ø,¸¸,ø€º°`°º€€º°`°º€ø,¸~->

    "One thing foreigners, computers, and poets have in common
is that they make unexpected linguistic associations." --- Jasia Reichardt

    "There is no reason for the poet to be limited to words, and in fact the
poet is most poetic when inventing languages. Hence the concept of the poet
as 'language designer'."  --- O. B. Hardison, Jr.

"At some point in the next century the number of invented languages will
probably overtake the number of surviving natural languages." - Cullen Murphy
in _Atlantic Monthly_ (October, 1995)

"La poésie date d' aujour d'hui."   (Poetry dates from today)
"La poésie est en jeu."             (Poetry is in play)
                --- Blaise Cendrars