Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

Sorry I took so long to send in a reply. I'm up the walls in college right
now, this being the co-op year and all. Hopefully I'm not too late.

Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:

> PART I.  FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
> Have you based your conlang(s) wholly or partially on a Celtic language?
> If so, on which?  or combined with which?
Not really. For a long time though I've been meaning to create a language
descended from a hypothetical Irish/Norse creole. It's tentatively called
'Prasillic' or 'Prasaeilg'.

> What is your name and what do you call your conlang(s)?
Keith Gaughan. My current two big conlangs are Ternaru and Eretas. There's
also an untitled language for a group of alien vampires who collectively
call themselves the Ananagyu (as in Ananaki). There were also umpteen false
starts, including Kaityanna, a language that had only three pronouns -
self, other and yonder - and then I found out about Damin, so I abandoned
it.

> When did you start it/them?
Secondary school. I was in second year and I was thinking about a story
that'd later become the basis for my Egon cycle. Specifically, I was
thinking about the Ternadi. In fact, I think that's the first word I made
up and the only one that's managed to make it through to today unscathed!

I wanted to give the a believable culture, so I began to work on a profile
detailing bits of history like the rise of Shako and her followers, the
spread of what would become known as 'Dagn Shakod' (Shako's language), the
fall of her dominion, what happened inbetween that and contact with humans,
and finally first contact. I detailed a religon I later found was rather
similar to Zoroastrianism, though only after reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra
and becoming curious about who the real Zarathustra was. Their economic
system was based on my own ideas on a good economic system, which I later
found to be quite similar to those expounded by E.E. Schumacher.

The language itself started as essentially a relex of English with some of
Irish and Japanese's grammatical features. I didn't know any better quite
frankly. Later I found a bit out about Basque and then I realised how
different a language could be - Irish and Japanese, Irish especially, have
never struck me as being very odd.

Over time, I began messing more and more with it, trying to make it more
exotic. I learned about a few other languages and they helped to fertilise
my imagination. Possibly the biggest thing I invented by myself and the one
I'm most proud of is what I think is a trigger system. Not having a
vocabulary close by, I'll have to guess here and there.

Essentially, the trigger system grew out of an attempt to avoid having
reflexive pronouns in the language. It already had prenominal particles to
indicate case, not dissimilar to Japanese.

The idea hit me that I could pile these together on one noun phrase to
simulate them, hence

    kAbfe   dabfe   tAkin
    1sg.NOM 1sg.ACC hit.PST
    'I hit myself'

could be written as

    kAdabfe     tAkin
    1sg.NOM.ACC hit.PST

I was well chuffed with this. Later I wanted a way to focus one of the NPs,
so the idea struck me that I could generalise on this and shift the
particles of the topicalised NP onto the verb, hence

    bfe kAdatAkin

I was even more chuffed still with this. And then I came to college and
found out about trigger systems from the old CONLANG FAQ. I was in two minds
when I discovered my invention wasn't all that new and clever. Until coming
down to college, the only conlangs I knew about were Esperanto, Klingon, and
my own. Now I'd discovered there wasn't anything particularly odd about my
hobby and later about the list.

I seem to have gone a bit off topic there, so oops!

> Are you still working with it/them or have you abandoned it or them?
Eretas, Ternaru and the Ananagyu language I'm still working with. The
countless others to remain nameless otherwise, no.

> On the other hand, perhaps the Celtic structures, their VSO, their
> paraphrastics, their initial mutations, their spelling conventions, their
> general strangeness caught your fancy, not necessarily their "beauty" or
> "romance."  Comment?
I've never found Celtic languages strange - after all, I grew up with one!

> How many of you are also scholars of Celtic languages?   Scholars of other
> languages?
>
> How were you introduced to them?
Well, I'm Irish - 'nuff said.

> PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on inspiration
> by Celtic languages):
> How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it include some
> of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology? (Elves,
> Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?  Selkies?  Wizards?)
Each of my languages either grew out of a conculture or a conculture grew
out of it. Ternaru and the Ananagyu language grew out of my Egon cycle and
a few scribblings on the Ananagyu respectively. Eretas helped give birth to
my Porteressian cycle and its conculture.

The Egon cycle is, as I discovered from Christian Thalmann, similar to
Michael Moorecock's Eternal Hero cycle. To be honest, I got the basic idea
of a soul bouncing around time and space from seeing Quantum Leap once and
from reading Nietzsche more than anything else (eternal recurrence) and
never read any of the Eternal Hero books until after Christian mentioned
them. Why does this keep happening to me? :-)

The Porteressian cycle isn't fantastical in the slightest, being more of a
satire on organised religon and cautionary tale on how good teachings can
be twisted out of shape. The genesis of that idea came from early
Christianity and the actions of St. Paul. It's culture is all over the place
but as far as I know they're humans.

> How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish because
> of your examination of Tolkien?
Finnish, yes.

> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society for
> Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
No. I've heard of the SCA, but what's the Mythopoeic Society?

> Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the appendices?
> etc.  Or not?
Only after coming to college and reading the Ardalambion. That's what got me
initially interested in Tolkien.

> What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
None consciously.

> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had with And
> Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
>  "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your
> conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or copiers
> of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?
Hmmm... How can I explain...

I don't see anything wrong with mellifuousness per se. To me, you have to
judge a language's beauty by judging how well each of its features work
together. For instance, I consider Klingon to be a beautiful language
whilst I would hardly say it sounds particularly pretty, the reason being
that as a whole the language in all its aspects just feels right.

> For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
> language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
Only a feeling of rightness; David Gelernter's "tuning fork of truth". If
a language feels right, that's all that matters to me irregardless of how
exotic it is.

> For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented
> language?
See the last answer.

> How many of you invent a non-human language?  And if so, how alien are its
> sounds and constructions?
I have, but I like to keep the phonology to something I could potentially
pronounce, hence you'll find lateral fricatives, but no clicks!

> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori language?
> In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base it
> closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of
> languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well, scratch?
> (if that can be done.)
Doesn't matter to me.

> How many of you invent logical languages?
Huh? :-)

> How many of you invent IALs?
Dog and His Holy Bone in His Kennel on High, no!

> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European concultures
> and what are they like?
Yup. I've outlined some bits and pieces above.

> How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
> How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
> I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words and
> your grammar?
> (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
Typically, I pull words out of the air, or make note of sound I read or
hear I feel might use. I've been meaning to do things more methodically
lately.

> PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
> langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
>
> Why do you conlang?  Who will speak it?  Read it?  What's the point?  What's
> the beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
Out of pure fun, why else? I like little intricate systems, and that's what
a language is.

> To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a model?  Is
> it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is it a
> communicable language?
All of the above!

> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
Nobody.

> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something that
> pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even for you,
> a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
> Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself in
> them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at the same
> time.)
Huh?

> This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right" to you?
> We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding righter, better
> words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps unanswerable).
It just does in context. End of story.

> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor plans,
> fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers,
> cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been associated with conlanging.  I
> 've done most of them.)
Done maps, ships, scripts, sketches. The script I'm proudest of is the one
for Eretas; I hate the one I came up with for Ternaru with a passion - it
never looks right.

> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:  how
> many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
I write fragments, partly to test out the language and its vocabulary, and
partly when I need some kind of text in the language for a specific purpose.
For Eretas I need some religious text, for instance.

> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that
> purpose?
I can sing and compose, but that's never came up.

> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have stuck
> to the same language over many years?   Why?
Yup. I stuck with Ternaru because I just can't let it die now - it's part
of me.

> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its making
> meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my hand).
Cyphers and scripts, yes. Languages, no.

> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your pet?
> child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
If I did, I'd be locked up in a mental institution I'd say!

> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be showcased?
> If so, what is the website address?
That's a bit difficult. I think the page for Ternaru (which I put up just
after my last big rethink) is at

    http://hereticmessiah.weblogs.com/conlangs/ternaru

though I'm not entirely sure. It's a bit out of date, but not too bad.

Eretas is up online too, but that's radically out of date. Don't go looking
for that. Please!

> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors, your
> family members about this pursuit?   How many of you have received
> condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure?  (I have.)  Or
> even been called "pathological"?
Not really. One of the few times I have was when I was in a buddy's office
printing out an unabridged copy of the Eretas grammar (it's easier to edit
on paper, I find). He asked what I was printing and I told him about the
language and a bit about the Porteressian cycle. He said the idea
(conlanging) was stupid and that I was just copying Tolkien (he's a big fan
of LOTR). I said that I'd been doing this long before I ever knew about
Tolkien's languages, and that if he can do it, why can't I? His response was
that I wasn't Tolkien. That cut deep.

> If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change?  (On New
> Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand why I would
> be interested in this pursuit.  What purpose could it serve?)
See last one.

> PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
>
> What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
23.

> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a student,
> what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is your
> intended major)?
I was a student (BSc. Computer Applications), then I went on sabbattical
from the course for two year - something I regret. I worked as a computer
programmer during that time. I came back to finish my course this year.

> What is your gender?
Male.

> What is your nationality and your native language?
Irish. English and Irish.

> What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
Speak English primarily, then Irish. I would be able to speak French quite
fluently if it weren't for the intense dislike for the language I came to
have later in Secondary School. I've some German.

I honestly can't remember what languages other than those I've studied
for conlanging purposes.

> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
> your language?
One that springs to mind is Katamba's Morphology. It's from that that I
gained an understanding of how Semitic languages work. I got my copy rather
cheaply - about IRP7 at the time I think.

Then there's Thurnysen's Grammar of Old Irish. I've yet to use it in
inventing a language, but it's there anyway.

There are others, but I can't remember.

> Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
> who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
> been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
> that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
No.

> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear description
> and translation?
Oh dear, not right now, but I'll see if I can dig up something.

Ternaru, BTW, looks quite different now from the language described above.

> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my talk?
> I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you answered.
Nope, not at all.

K.

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