Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

From: "Sally Caves" <scaves@...>
Subject: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)


> PART I.  FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
> Have you based your conlang(s) wholly or partially on a Celtic language?
> If so, on which?  or combined with which?
No.  I've never made a conlang based on a Celtic language, though I have
skimmed through some Celtic grammar books for inspiration.  But I think I've
done that with every language I've come across.

> What is your name and what do you call your conlang(s)?
My name is Joe Fatula, and I have several conlangs I'm working on in my
current conworld.

Altsag Venchet
Chovur
Tsom Venchet
Ulzu Qhalda

Atshadalzur

Eihdan

Morgenon
Torum Morgenon

Oldvak

Siluila
Silven Arlef
Silwen Nunath
Tunugruc Emeth

Stumbrin

Tacakta
Tazhenat
Tazhnakt
Thaxata

Teuthurev

Thanyar

Thungwaz

Valaccene

That's what I've got so far.  Each of the blocks is a group of related
languages, so there's really only one made up in each family, with smaller
changes to get the descendants.

> When did you start it/them?
This world (and its languages) I started in April of 2002.  I've done some
in the past, but this is the most active project.

> Are you still working with it/them or have you abandoned it or them?
Definitely still working with them.

> What Celtic features have you borrowed?  What is the structure of your
> language?  Be specific.
I have lenition in one family, and the leat- prefix in it as well (for
making "half" or "semi" words).  That language family is SOV, very
non-Celtic in structure, mostly agglutinative tending towards inflectional
over time (with one that went off in a completely different direction).

> What innovations did you introduce?  (new constructions, perhaps a new
> script, etc.)
None are Celtic based, so everything's innovation.

> What features of Celtic languages (or a particular Celtic language)
> initially inspired or intrigued you?  For example, Tolkien, as he
described
> it in "Welsh and English" was impressed by the beauty of a Welsh
inscription
> he saw on a building: Adeiladwyd 1887 ('built 1887').  He loved words like
> wybren, so much more "mellifluous" than our borrowed word "sky."  He was
> likewise enthralled by Finnish and Hebrew.  So he deliberately set out to
> make his Elvish languages beautiful.   Was this a draw for you as well in
> choosing Celtic as a model? (I understand that T's Elvish languages are
not
> exclusively "Celtic."  He has described them, however, as being
> "European-like.")
I enjoy the use of w and y as vowels (as in Welsh), and the concise nature
of the Irish spelling system.

> On the other hand, perhaps the Celtic structures, their VSO, their
> paraphrastics, their initial mutations, their spelling conventions, their
> general strangeness caught your fancy, not necessarily their "beauty" or
> "romance."  Comment?
As above.

> How many of you are also scholars of Celtic languages?   Scholars of other
> languages?
Not really a scholar of any languages.  Sort of studying Spanish.

> How were you introduced to them?
Celtic langauges?  Just some of many languages I've read about at the
library.

>
> PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on
inspiration
> by Celtic languages):
>
> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your
exposure
> to Tolkien?
Not me.  I was making languages since long before I'd heard of Tolkien.

> How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or your
> conculture in Middle Earth?
Never done either.

> How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it include some
> of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology? (Elves,
> Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?  Selkies?
Wizards?)

Definitely have a constructed world, but it doesn't include any of those
sorts of races.  There are certainly humans, though.  I prefer to make up my
own creatures instead of steal from everyone else.

> How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish because
> of your examination of Tolkien?
I had examined them long before I read any Tolkien.

> How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture because
of
> some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
My first attempt at making a language was when I was probably 6-8 years old.
I still remember a little bit of it, and it was distinctly non-English, even
though I hadn't had any exposure to any other languages at the time.  I
don't think I was inspired to do this from anything else, just my own
interests.

> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you engage in
> Roll-Playing Games?
I've made up stuff for RPGs, even some languages for friends' games.

> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard of
this
> listserv?
Not me.

> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society for
> Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
I went to an SCA event, but decided it wasn't at all what I was looking for.
The consistency that pervades a good work of fiction was completely lost on
the SCA as a whole.  At least from what I could see.  It's probably loads of
fun for some people, though.

> PART III:  NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
> In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've
> observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque"
> languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and
> especially the "Celtic."  Why?  Boring?  Overdone?  Trite?  Too pretty?
> Too Western?  Or none of the above--just more interested in something
else?
> <G>  I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only
> because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY or a
> DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see some
> eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic,"
> and/or even the Indo-European model.
>
> What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
As above.

> So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging?  Or
> Tolkien's Elvish?
I never had much exposure to other languages when I started conlanging, so
mine didn't look much like various Indo-European languages or Elvish.  I see
nothing wrong with these, but I try to make up languages that don't seem at
all like any language.  So in essence, I'm trying to stay away from all
languages, going off on my own tangents.

> How did you start conlanging?  What was your initial inspiration?
As above.

> Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the appendices?
> etc.  Or not?
Didn't know about Tolkien's works until a few years ago, long after I
started doing this sort of thing.

> What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
One of my languages was deliberately similar to Proto-Germanic, one was made
to work like Hungarian (sort of).  I have one with a few features I like
borrowed from Ainu.

> What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
The Germanic one was made so that it has a descendant that works and sounds
much like English, to give an artificial familiarity to gamers/readers.  But
I decided that wasn't very interesting, so all its descendants go off on
other tracks.

The one similar to Hungarian was really just an excuse to make really long
words.

> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had with
And
> Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
>  "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your
> conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or
copiers
> of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?
I usually want to make language that sounds good.

> For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
> language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
It is almost always a factor for me.  But I find that it's more a matter of
making languages that sound interesting, whether a deep chestnut brown or
the knocking together of staves.  I doubt that makes any sense, but I
generally am trying to evoke a sensation with the sounds of my languages.
At the same time, I really like the technical end of things, so they have
structure and logical coherence that (for me) is fun to make.

> For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented
> language?
I almost always try to make my languages different in some way from
languages that already exist.

> How many of you invent a non-human language?  And if so, how alien are its
> sounds and constructions?
I have two different non-human languages so far (other than one that was for
a friend, and like Spanish because he wanted it that way).  Both of my
non-human ones have all human sounds so that I can pronounce them.  But one
has a great deal of distinctions that are difficult.

The constructions are pretty interesting.  Teuthurev has no verbs at all, a
large set of number-type affixes that don't correspond to any number
categories I've seen before.  It also has vowel fortition.

Eihdan has both consonant harmony and fortition, eleven "gender" type
classes, and the number of the noun is based on its gender, so some nouns
are automatically plural, while others are automatically ambal, with various
endings to change them around.

> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori language?
> In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base it
> closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of
> languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well,
scratch?
> (if that can be done.)
Always a priori.

> How many of you invent a language based on a particular type (Ergative,
> Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
I don't think I understand the question.

> To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important to you
> in your conlang?  what natural language eccentricities (or efficiencies)
do
> you like and try to reproduce?
I usually like making a more regular language, then making descendants of it
(and descendants of those) where sound change causes more complex rules (and
exceptions) to occur.  So the eccentricities seem to come about naturally.
I've got one language where verbs are conjugated for object, subject, and
mood, where its ancestral language only conjugated for subject.  But due to
sound changes, the other conjugations just fell into place.

> To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important to
> your conlang?  What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
I like natural languages the way they are.  Mine have plenty of inaccessible
features of their own, just as it comes into place.

> How many of you invent logical languages?
I don't.

> How many of you invent IALs?
Do IALs in a conworld count?  If so, I've got one.

> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European concultures
> and what are they like?
I'm working on some now.  I've never made a Tokienesque conculture.

I like developing cultures the same way I develop languages.  In my
conworld, I started with a number of proto-cultures that interact and
develop into later descendants.  For influence, I'd say the following groups
are most involved:

Armenia, western/central Asia
Iceland of the sagas
imperial Mongolia
early feudal Japan
Roman Republic
Babylonia & Assyria

> How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
I've done quite a bit of that.

> How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
Occasionally I'll computer-generate a bunch of root words, then pick out
some that I like, then assign meanings to them based on their sounds.  Once
I've got a good 20 or so, I generally start making them up out of thin air.

> I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words and
> your grammar?
> (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
I don't think I understand enough of what my mind is doing to answer this
one.  Sometimes it goes on without me, only checking in every so often.


> PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
> langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
>
> Why do you conlang?  Who will speak it?  Read it?  What's the point?
What's
> the beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
I enjoy playing music alone in the hills behind my home.  It's the same
thing.  It's not a strictly private thing, so if a friend wants to hear/see
my language stuff, that's fine, but I enjoy it on my own.

> To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a model?
Is
> it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is it a
> communicable language?
It's more like finding an artist who only has three colors of paint, and
trying to invent ten new colors, then show him how to use them in a
painting.

> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
I speak to the little people in my head, and that is all I need do.

> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something
that
> pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even for
you,
> a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
> Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself in
> them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at the
same
> time.)
Familiar and foreign at the same time?  This is a good description of it.

> This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right" to
you?
> We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding righter,
better
> words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps unanswerable).
I guess you're referring to the synaesthesia post I made earlier.  There are
some things that I simply know to be right.  Sometimes a word just strikes
me as right.  Other times, I just use something that seems acceptable, but
not striking.

> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor plans,
> fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers,
> cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been associated with conlanging.
I
> 've done most of them.)
I enjoy making everything for my worlds.  I've been studying the astronomy
needed to develop several calendrical systems, I'm making calligraphy and
various paper-art forms for my world.  I've designed costumes, architectural
styles, cooked up recipes, made reams of maps, etc.

> How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
Many, and they go through as much evolution as the languages.

> If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing
system?
> In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent sounds?
> Why?
Every language I make has a Romanization scheme so that I can record all the
words in a dictionary format on the computer.  I try to keep it as phonetic
as possible.

> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:  how
> many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
I write all kinds of stuff in my languages.  I've written poetry, songs,
lessons on grammar.  (One lesson on speaking English!)  I'm working on a
treatise on the art of rhetoric in Tháxata.

> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that
> purpose?
My earliest memory of a language of my own is a line from a song I made when
I was a little kid.  I've made songs since then.

> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have stuck
> to the same language over many years?   Why?
I've made a few languages, but this is my first real project.  A few of the
earlier features stuck as interesting, so they've continued on to this
project.

> How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for many
> languages but not sticking with any one for very long?  Why?
Until this world, I've never had this much interest in conlanging.

> For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual instrument?
> This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an example.  When I
> first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens, what I wrote were
> spells and prayers.  They had a talismanic quality.  Does that ring a bell
> for anybody?
It does.  I've written a number of blessings and prayers.  I remember
actually deciding one day to pray in Chovur instead of English.  And I know
that any language would have done, but I had translated a prayer into
Chovur, and so I used it.

> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its making
> meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my hand).
I've written a few notes and such in these languages.  But I find I don't
need to.  If I write notes and such to myself that I don't want anyone to
read, I use a jumble of words from various languages that I am familiar with
so that no one can figure out what it says.

> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your
pet?
> child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
I don't have a single language that is the focus of my project, so I haven't
learned one like this.

> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be showcased?
> If so, what is the website address?
I don't have any website up yet.  But when I do, I'll post it here for all
to see.

> How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of us
can
> hear it?  If so, give the site.
http://timshak.tripod.com/lang/chovur.html

This is the only thing I have online - a brief lesson in Chovur where you do
your own exploring.

> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors,
your
> family members about this pursuit?   How many of you have received
> condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure?  (I have.)
Or
> even been called "pathological"?
I've never talked about it except to my immediate family (who think it's
just weird, but inline with all the other weird things I do) and a few close
friends, who agree about the weird comments.

> If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change?  (On
New
> Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand why I
would
> be interested in this pursuit.  What purpose could it serve?)
I've not seen a change in attitudes.

> For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real
languages
> than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?  What would be
> your response to such a remark?
Never gotten this criticism.  But my response?  I'd ask why I should learn a
real language.  All the reasons I'd want to learn a real language are
basically 1) it helps you in life/school/work/love or 2) it's fun and
enriching.  If the first is relevant for you, it's not just "real languages"
but a specific language, like "Spanish because my girlfriend speaks it" or
"Chinese because all my clients speak it" or even "Vietnamese because I want
to make the new neighbors feel more comfortable".  If it's for the second
reason (fun), then any language, real or imaginary, is just as good.

But a lot of the approach (for me) is one a programmer might understand.
There's something very structural and logical about language that is
interesting in its own right.

>
> PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
>
> What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
21

> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a
student,
> what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is your
> intended major)?
Student, majoring in computer graphics and animation, but intending to
become a teacher.

> What is your gender?
Male.

> What is your nationality and your native language?
American, English.  (with the comma for the first, without for the second)

> What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
I speak English just fine.  My Spanish is enough to make myself understood,
but as anyone who hears it will tell you, the word "comical" comes to mind.
But I haven't studied it, so it's just what I've picked up from friends, et
al.  I took German in high school and remember most of what we studied.
Unfortunately, we didn't study much.  I've read up a lot on Hebrew and Greek
for biblical studies, Slovak as some of the elders in my family still speak
it (and I feel I ought to), and Old English as I really like Beowulf.

> How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your
> interest in inventing languages?  Or plan a profession in linguistics?
Not me.

> What have you learned from conlanging?
I'm not sure where to begin.

> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
> your language?
Books on individual languages, mostly.  I like to collect books on any
languages I haven't got ones on already.

> Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
> who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
> been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
> that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
I've never met anyone off of this list even, with the exception of Mark
Rosenfelder.  Okay, so I haven't met him, but I've seen his page and written
some emails to him.

> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear
description
> and translation?
Sure.  Which one?  I've translated Schleicher's Tale into most of them, so
that could be a starting point.

> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my
talk?
> I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you answered.
Go right ahead.  You could even tell them my name if you like.  (Not that
they would care, but you could.)

>
> Ev send poto, yry poy poy firrimby!
>
> Sally Caves
> scaves@frontiernet.net
> Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
> "My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."
> http://www.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.html