Re: Noun and noun or noun

Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> OK. Kelen, in the latest version, which is not yet on my website, has a
> distinction between regular plurals and separate plurals. This does not
> mean, however, that the collective plural doesn't have occasionally a
> separate meaning. For example: (in simplified spelling, i.e. without acce=
nt
> marks)
>=20
> ja mara =3D a house or the house
> ne mara =3D houses, the houses
> an mara =3D group of houses, village
>=20
> ja meth =3D tree
> ne meth =3D trees
> an meth =3D group of trees, forest
>=20
> ja jel =3D forest
> ne jel =3D forests
> an jel =3D group of forest, or by extension, the ecosphere.
>=20
> This is also maintained in pronouns:
>=20
> ma =3D 3p neutral
> saen =3D 3p singular
> saeth =3D 3p plural
> saenen =3D 3p collective plural

Yes, that's something like my early "collective plural" was, a group of
individuals which together form a whole.  These days I use a semantic suffi=
x,
-e"ad, for that rather than using an actual plural, as Arove"n is a logical
language and this "group forming a whole" can't be logically defined.  The
equivalent of "an jel" is also a suffix, -anad, e.g. alvanad =3D all the tr=
ees
(literally: tree-matter) in existence.  Arove"n plurals are as follows:
 (none) -- the statement is true about this (singular) subject
 i" -- the statement is true about this subject, and it's true about this
   subject, etc.
 e" -- the statement is true about this *collective group*.  Now this is
   something rather different: every semantic word is defined to allow
   number-dependant subjects and patients -- some are strictly singular,
   while others are strictly plural; most may be either (for instance, the
   subject of playing tennis is neccessarily plural as one person can't
   properly play the game by him/herself.  Card-player-s, in contrast, may =
be
   either singular or plural).  I can see a tree (sing.).  I can see a tree
   and another tree (possibly at nearly the same time; the point is that th=
ey
   were observed as individuals) (sep.).  I can see trees, a mass of them
   (coll.).  I must neccessarily see them all at the same time or in one
   continuous glance -- the point is that they together form one compound
   visual object which I observe as a whole.  The collective plural is
   dependant upon the definition of the words it is used upon, and upon the
   coordinating word of the sentence ("verb", but this is not a word class)=
.
   Complicated, but logically neccessary.  I wonder how Lojban has dealt wi=
th
   this problem.


> One would use the collective plural pronoun when speaking of a family or
> other such cohesive group, and a non-collective plural otherwise.
Mm-hm. A compound meaning "related-mutually-group" forms the standard word
  for "family" in Arove"n.


> Maintaining a collective plural gets to be interesting when dealing with
> abstract nouns, and I would tell you more, but I haven't worked it all ou=
t
> yet.
I'd be interested to hear what you've got so far.  Arove"n tends to shy awa=
y
from plurals for abstract topics.  For instance, two "thoughts" together ar=
e
also a thought, singular, although a more complex one; if they are thought
separately or deliberately kept apart in some way then you use the plurals.

Josh

        _/_/      _/_/  _/_/_/_/   Joshua Shinavier            =20
         _/        _/  _/         Loorenstrasse 74, Zimmer B321=20
        _/        _/  _/_/_/_/   CH-8053 Z=FCrich              =20
 _/    _/  _/    _/        _/   Switzerland                 =20
_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   jshinavi@g26.ethz.ch

Danov=EBn pages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/5555/ven.htm