Re: Relexes Pt. 1: Defence

On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 10:40 PM, Costentin Cornomorus wrote:

> --- Gary Shannon <fiziwig@...> wrote:
[snip]
>> Is there really such a thing as a novel
>> grammar?
>
> Not in natural languages - neither in constructed
> languages!
Well, tell me, you two, what languages do the grammars
of lojban, AllNoun and Lin mirror?
-------------------------------------------------------

On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 10:23 PM, Tim May wrote:
[snip]
> In any case, grammar is only indirectly relevant to whether a conlang
> is a relex.  The real point is the lexicon - whether each dictionary
> entry covers the same semantic field as an equivalent in the natlang.
No, the term _relexification_ is derived from sociolinguistics where it
was coined to refer a theory about the origins and relationships between
pidgins and creoles.  The theory is that the range of English, French,
Spanish, Dutch etc. pidgins is derived from the first widely used pidgin,
the Portuguese pidgin of 15th cent. West Africa.   According to this
theory,
the _grammar_ of the west African pidgin was retained while new _lexical
items_ were introduced from other European languages, i.e. the grammar
stayed the same but it was given a new (or revised) lexicon, hence
'relexification'.  The supporters of the theory maintain it provides a
satisfactory explanation for the many grammatical similarities noted
between
European-based pidgins & creoles.

The grammar is directly relevant - it doesn't change. Only the lexis is
renewed.

> * And I don't think this is the case.  For example, I don't think any
>   natural language has anything like lojban argument structure.
On this I agree.  Indeed, was it not one of the aims of Loglan, lojban &
related loglangs that they should _not_ have grammatical structures of
natlangs?

And I wait to be told what natural language has only one part of speech,
i.e. noun. In fact, Tom Breton's AllNoun is the exact _reverse_ of
relexification.

He didn't give his conlang a new lexicon - it just used English;
but he gave it what (to my simple mind, at least) is a novel grammar.

It will also be interesting to discover which natlang has in-built
enneasemy that gets disambiguated by a system of internal and external
cements.

Ray,
waiting for enlightenment.

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