Re: CHAT: RPGs (was Re: Wargs)

John Cowan wrote:
>
> Sally Caves wrote:
>
> > > > Hey, if "man wolf" was a good enough compound for our Anglo-Saxon predecessors,
> > > > it should be good enough for us!
>
> > Tom, John Cowan has simply taken me out of context, and appears to be
> > responding to a half-sentence of mine.  Actually, I don't understand
> > John's remark at all, or why my half-quoted sentence inspired it.  I
> > think it had something to do with my original question, and that was:
> > how do you say werewolf in your language?
>
> Indeed.  I was merely suggesting that "man wolf", whether it is the
> etymology of "werewolf" or not, is a fairly good compound for it
> in a head-last language like English.  "Wolfman" is also, of course,
> in use; so one can say that either "wolfish man" or "manlike wolf"
> is a reasonable compound for a conlang.
Except to my mind it means something slightly different.  It suggests
a similarity instead of a hybrid.  And I always think of werewolves as
hybrids (man by day, wolf by night; man most of the week, wolf for three
days out of the week; man when wearing clothes, wolf when not; wolf when
man puts on special belt, special ointment, special wolfcarcass, gets
cursed by witch or step-mother).

>
> > for how can I also say hermaphrodite in Teonaht?  man woman-like?  That
> > just doesn't cut it, does it?
>
> No, I don't think so.  Lojban uses a compounding strategy with a form of
> the word "and" for cases like this. Skt is just full of them, and even
> has "or" compounds like "victory-defeat" meaning "victory or defeat".
Hmmm.  That sounds good.  I might add an "and" formation to my list of
compounds.  Thanks.

> > FYI, John,
> > It is simply not known whether the element "were" in English
> > werewolf really means man.  It's used only once in the Old English
> > corpus, and to mean Satan.  But wer, man, a word with a short vowel in
> > it, is spelled were, implying a long vowel.  It was shortened in Middle
> > English to werwolf, and has the variants werewolf and warwolf.
>
> I thought that the controversy was whether OE werewolf > ME werwolf,
> or whether the latter was a spontaneous re-creation.  "Wer" was still
> in use in ME poetry, IIRC... (Sir Gawain, I think?)
Oh sure.  And the confusion seems obvious, which would argue for a
spontaneous recreation, as you say.  But I'm interested in the
OE meaning, which is admittedly difficult, because it's a single
occurance.
The text wherein most of our ME words for werwolf occurs is by far the
English translation of Guillaume de Palerne, called by Skeat "William
and the Werwolf," or simply William of Palerne.  A very funny romance!
There is also a werwolf in Mallory in the section of Marrek.  But it
really isn't that common, apparently, which makes it difficult to work
up an etymology.

> > Wergild did not mean "man money," as it is popularly conceived.
>
> Yeah, in hindsight that's fairly obvious, as "wer" is firmly masculine
> in meaning, but women and children had a wergild too.
Hmmm.  Interesting.  I don't think that stops any speaker from making
it a generic.  Remember that in OE gender was often just grammatical
rather than natural; wif is neuter.  Man seems to be the generic term
for "human being," and "wer"... hmmmm.  Interesting.  This wer word
is definitely a pain in the ass!!!!   But cool.  <G>

Sally

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SALLY CAVES
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Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
"The gods have retractible claws."
                                from _The Gospel of Bastet_
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