LWII: Attack of the Euroclones (fi: Indika)
|From:||Costentin Cornomorus <elemtilas@...>|
|Date:||Tuesday, June 10, 2003, 17:15|
Escreus il Jowan van Stenbergo:
> --- Padraic Cornomorus skrzypszy:
> > A euroclone is a very specific kind of
> > conlang.
> > First, it is an auxlang (thus putting it in
> > the
> > same category as Ido, E-o, Volapuk, etr.)
> > Secondly, it closely mimics one or another of
> > the
> > previously introduced european based
> > constructed
> > auxlangs in grammar, vocabulary or structure.
> Is that so?
As I understand the term; and as is definded by
Henning below (though better than I did!).
> In the Euroclone collection on
> Langmaker.com I find quite
> a number
> of languages that do to meet one or even both
> of this criteria. Just
> examples: Aingeljã, Ignota, LaAdan, Nadsat, and
> even Solresol!
That is a _very_ confusing list! I think they
must have misapplied the classifier "euroclone".
Ignota? The roots have nothing to do with _any_
European language's roots; Laadan? hardly
European! Solresol? Come on! Solresol may well be
an IAL, but it's not a euroclone IAL.
> course, many
> of these language were terribly misclassified.
To say the least!
> Jeffrey Henning:
> "Euroclone - An international auxiliary
> language derived primarily from
> European stock. Most have primarily Romance
> vocabulary and/or use Classical
> roots (Greek and Latin) and/or some English
> roots. (Usually, but not always,
> used pejoratively.)"
This is largely the definition I pieced together
from hearing the word used in conversation. I
would add only that a euroclone must be a
conlang. After all, French is derived from
European stock and has primarily Romance and some
Greek roots! It's hardly a euroclone!
> Rick Harrison:
> "The term 'euroclones' refers to those language
> projects that closely resemble
> Ido or Interlingua or a hybrid of the two.
> These projects are numerous and are
> virtually indistinguishable from one another,
> although connoisseurs claim they
> can tell the difference."
That's more a description than a definition. I am
hesitant to require that a euroclone must be
compared to Eo or Ia, though. If I invent a Latin
without inflexions and use regularised Latin and
Greek roots; it ought to be considered a
euroclone on its own merits, not because it
resembles an earlier euroclone.
> Another thing is that a Euroclone incorporates
> elements from natlangs or other
> Euroclones, usually in a simplified form,
> without having any special features on its own.
Agreed. Especially the "simplified form" bit.
> In other words: if you would stand
> up tomorrow and proclaim Kerno
> as the new IAL to end all IALs, would that
> suddenly make it a Euroclone?
:D Well, no! It would, however, be the IAL to End
All IALs! If for no other reason than that the
world will unite and forever revolt against the
very notion of IALs!! ;)))
> because it has too many original features of
> its own (not to mention
> the fact
> that its grammar isn't exactly what one would
> call "simplified").
Oh, I don't know...I find it pretty easy! :)
> he has a point when he
> calls Euroclones "projects that closely
> resemble Ido or Interlingua
> or a hybrid
> of the two". [...] I wonder if it would really
> make sense to include languages like Volapük,
> Tutonish or Slovio. Perhaps we should just
> limit the term Euroclone to its
> pejorative use, and baptise the languages in
> question "Esperantoids".
Are you saying that all european derived IALs
(Volapuck and Tutonish included) should be called
Esperantoids; and leave euroclone to the
specifically Eo/Ia like IALs? A sort of
classification scheme? Personally, I don't care -
they're just IALs after all!!!
> So, what would in your opinion be the
> difference between a Eurolang
> and a Euroclone?
Well, the fundamental feature is IAL v. artlang,
really. As I said (and according to Henning's
def.), a Euroclone is "an IAL derived from
European stock (specifically Romance)". A
Eurolang would then be "any conlang (especially
nonIALs) derived from any European stock".
Kerno, Wenedyk and Brithenig would be Eurolangs;
Ia, Ido and Eo would be Euroclones (as well as
Et ters davigaint deck y yaithes 'n el drichlend le Roy Markon;
y cestes d' ils yspoil morès y ddew chaumèz e-z-el tons l' organón.