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LWII: Attack of the Euroclones (fi: Indika)

From:Costentin Cornomorus <elemtilas@...>
Date:Tuesday, June 10, 2003, 17:15
Escreus il Jowan van Stenbergo:

> --- Padraic Cornomorus skrzypszy: > > > A euroclone is a very specific kind of > > conlang. > > > > First, it is an auxlang (thus putting it in > > the > > same category as Ido, E-o, Volapuk, etr.) > > Secondly, it closely mimics one or another of > > the > > previously introduced european based > > constructed > > auxlangs in grammar, vocabulary or structure. > > Is that so?
As I understand the term; and as is definded by Henning below (though better than I did!).
> In the Euroclone collection on > I find quite > a number > of languages that do to meet one or even both > of this criteria. Just > some > examples: Aingeljã, Ignota, LaAdan, Nadsat, and > even Solresol!
That is a _very_ confusing list! I think they must have misapplied the classifier "euroclone". Ignota? The roots have nothing to do with _any_ European language's roots; Laadan? hardly European! Solresol? Come on! Solresol may well be an IAL, but it's not a euroclone IAL.
> Of > course, many > of these language were terribly misclassified.
To say the least!
> Jeffrey Henning: > "Euroclone - An international auxiliary > language derived primarily from > European stock. Most have primarily Romance > vocabulary and/or use Classical > roots (Greek and Latin) and/or some English > roots. (Usually, but not always, > used pejoratively.)"
This is largely the definition I pieced together from hearing the word used in conversation. I would add only that a euroclone must be a conlang. After all, French is derived from European stock and has primarily Romance and some Greek roots! It's hardly a euroclone!
> Rick Harrison: > "The term 'euroclones' refers to those language > projects that closely resemble > Ido or Interlingua or a hybrid of the two. > These projects are numerous and are > virtually indistinguishable from one another, > although connoisseurs claim they > can tell the difference."
That's more a description than a definition. I am hesitant to require that a euroclone must be compared to Eo or Ia, though. If I invent a Latin without inflexions and use regularised Latin and Greek roots; it ought to be considered a euroclone on its own merits, not because it resembles an earlier euroclone.
> Another thing is that a Euroclone incorporates > elements from natlangs or other > Euroclones, usually in a simplified form, > without having any special features on its own.
Agreed. Especially the "simplified form" bit.
> In other words: if you would stand > up tomorrow and proclaim Kerno > as the new IAL to end all IALs, would that > suddenly make it a Euroclone?
:D Well, no! It would, however, be the IAL to End All IALs! If for no other reason than that the world will unite and forever revolt against the very notion of IALs!! ;)))
> No, > because it has too many original features of > its own (not to mention > the fact > that its grammar isn't exactly what one would > call "simplified").
Oh, I don't know...I find it pretty easy! :)
> he has a point when he > calls Euroclones "projects that closely > resemble Ido or Interlingua > or a hybrid > of the two". [...] I wonder if it would really > make sense to include languages like Volapük, > Tutonish or Slovio. Perhaps we should just > limit the term Euroclone to its > pejorative use, and baptise the languages in > question "Esperantoids".
Are you saying that all european derived IALs (Volapuck and Tutonish included) should be called Esperantoids; and leave euroclone to the specifically Eo/Ia like IALs? A sort of classification scheme? Personally, I don't care - they're just IALs after all!!!
> So, what would in your opinion be the > difference between a Eurolang > and a Euroclone?
Well, the fundamental feature is IAL v. artlang, really. As I said (and according to Henning's def.), a Euroclone is "an IAL derived from European stock (specifically Romance)". A Eurolang would then be "any conlang (especially nonIALs) derived from any European stock". Kerno, Wenedyk and Brithenig would be Eurolangs; Ia, Ido and Eo would be Euroclones (as well as being Eurolangs). Padraic. ===== Et ters davigaint deck y yaithes 'n el drichlend le Roy Markon; y cestes d' ils yspoil morès y ddew chaumèz e-z-el tons l' organón. .


Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>