Re: Elvish ideas ...

Quoting Thomas Leigh <thomas@...>:

> Sgrìobh Andreas...
>
> > > What is written _sj_ in Swedish used to *be*
> > >  _sj_ at some point, unless
> > > I am grossly mistaken.
> >
> > No, that's quite correct. And I believe the
> > dialects that have [x] or similar
> > got there with [S] as an intermediate stage.
>
> All English-language learning material for Swedish that I have
> ever seen (all the "Teach Yourself"-type books, etc.) always say
> that _sj_, _stj_, etc. are pronounced [S], and the speakers on
> accompanying tapes always pronounce it as [S]. Imagine my
> confusion, then, when every Swede I've ever actually met in
> person has pronounced it [x] (or something similar, which I
> couldn't begin to transcribe, which sounds like a sort of
> mixture between [x] and a voiceless bilabial frivative).
>
> The books and tapes also always have [C] as the pronunciation of
> _kj_ (and k + front vowel, etc.), often likening it to the "h in
> English huge" or something like that, yet every Swede I've met
> has pronounced *that* as [S]! (Which, according to the books, is
> supposed to be _sj_, not _kj_!)
>
> What's an anglophone swedophile to do? :)
Forget the textbooks and speak like a real Swede. I do wonder where they dig
up people with those pronunciations for the tapes - they're quite unusual.

> Actually, I think the sound change of [S] to [x] is not that
> unsual, though it seemed so at first to me; I've seen the name
> of the language Pashto also as Pakhto; apparently some dialects
> of that language have [x] where others have [S].
Spanish did it too; "x" and "j" used to be [S] and [Z], then merged as [S]
only to retract to [x] (and go on and become [h] and [C] and what have you in
various dialects and positions).

                                               Andreas