Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: German T/V distinction (was Re: Is the list dead?)

From:Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
Date:Thursday, April 24, 2008, 15:22
Why do we call this a "T/V" distinction?  <French tu/vous? Can't be
<Latin since it didn't have a formality distinction in the 2nd person
pronouns....

It still cracks me up that Latin American parents refer to their
toddlers collectively as "your graces". :)



On 4/24/08, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Tristan McLeay <conlang@...> > wrote: > > But maybe a slightly more on-topic question: German text books often say > > you should use "Sie" when you would address someone as "Mr/s Surname", > > and "du" if you would address them by the firstname, but provide little > > additional guidance. I assume that "Sie" is not reserved for use by > > addressing primary and secondary school students and that therefore > > there's an additional unstated cultural difference here. Therefore: > > > > (a) In Germany, when would you address someone by "Sie"/"Herr/Frau > > Familienname", and when as "du"/"Vorname"? > > I would address someone as "du" when: > - I'm a child up to the age of six or so (leading to the situation > seen in some kindergartens where children will say, "Frau Meier, > kannst du mir bitte helfen?", since they haven't learned the du/Sie > distinction yet but will call their teachers by their family names, > which is how they know them as > - I'm under 22 or so and addressing someone roughly my age > - I'm addressing a child up to the age of about 16 or so > - I'm addressing a relative of mine > - I'm addressing someone I've known since our shared childhood > - I'm addressing someone who knows me well enough that he offered to > let me call him "du" (traditionally, this also involved drinking > together in order to "seal" this event). Note that this is often, but > not always, symmetrical: I might call someone "du" who calls me "Sie" > or vice versa, especially if there's a significant difference in age > and/or status, but perhaps simply if one person offered the "du" to > the other but the other decided not to reciprocate, for whatever > reason. > - The offer is often phrased as "My name is [given name]", implying > "You can stop calling me Mr/Mrs [family name] and 'Sie'; please feel > free to call me [given name] and 'du' from now on." Another > possibilities include "You ['Sie' or 'du', depending on what you call > the other person and on how presumptuous you are that the other person > will reciprocate] can go ahead and call me 'du'" or "Shan't we use > 'du'?" > - The offer is usually made first by the "higher" (in age and/or > status) person; offering the "du" to someone higher than you can be > considered presumptuous, and it - let alone calling someone "du" > without first offering or having received an offer - might result in a > response along the lines of "I can't remember having played in the > sandpit together with you". > - It's an offer and can, therefore, be refused (by continuing to > call the person by their family name and "Sie"). I have the impression > that it's considered impolite to do so, however. > > I would address someone with "Sie" in the other cases. So, roughly: > when I'm older than six or so and am talking with someone who is > older than 16 or so, isn't related to me nor roughly my age, and > hasn't offered to let me call him "du" (yet). > > Also, "given name" and "du" typically go together, as do "family name" > and "Sie", but this is not always the case. > > For example, in schools, it's not uncommon for teachers to address > their pupils as "Sie" but continue to use their given name starting > from 10th grade (roughly, age 16) - this is sometimes called > "Hamburger Sie". It also occurs in companies such as mine, where > nearly everyone calls co-workers by their given name, but may use > "Sie" rather than "du" if they don't feel especially close to them > (especially towards a superior, someone quite a bit older than you, or > someone with whom you have little regular contact). I'm told this can > also happen when parents address grown-up friends of their children, > whom they know by their first name only (from how their child talks to > them) but whom they want to use the formal "Sie" to in recognition of > their having come of age. > > And on the other hand, you have situations where someone is called by > family name and "du", such as the kindergarten example mentioned > earlier, or in a situation (such as in retail) where employees wear > name tags with their family name (which is what they expect customers > to call them) and call each other with those names (in the presence of > customers) but use "du" because they're on familiar terms with one > another. (This is sometimes called "Berliner Sie", when the bare > family name is used, or the "Münchner Sie", when title ["Mr/Mrs"] + > family name is used.) > > > (b) In other English-speaking countries, when would you address someone > > as "Mr/s Surname"? > > (c) How do you introduce yourself? I would normally introduce myself as > > just "Tristan"; my surname is only relevant for filling in forms. In > > other places, would you sometimes introduce yourself as just > > "Firstname", others just "Mr/s Surname"? Would you generally introduce > > yourself as "Firstname Surname"? > > Still talking about German: > > I answer the telephone with "Newton", both at home and at work. When > meeting someone in a work-related setting, I'll typically introduce > myself as, "Newton" or "my name is Newton". Saying "My name is Mr > Newton" sounds odd to me. > > I might introduce myself as "Philip Newton" when giving a > presentation, but probably not when greeting a single person and being > introduced; since I'd expect them to call me "Mr Newton", I'd just > give them my family name. > > > Saying "in formal circumstances" merely begs the question, because > > there's a picture in one of the textbooks of neighbors meeting over the > > fence and addressing each other as "Sie"; I have no idea how that could > > be "formal". > > Given the "requirement" for an offer to be made before you "may" > address someone as "du", this boils down to "in what circumstances do > people usually offer the 'du' to someone else" (specifically here: > would neighbours tend to do so or not). I don't think I can say any > guidelines or "typical" relationships/lengths of time that apply. > > Cheers, > -- > Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> >
-- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>

Replies

Krista Casada <kcasada@...>
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>