Re: "defense of wilderness" (wasRe: lexicon)

In a message dated 2003:06:04 08:13:16 PM, John Cowan quotes & writes:

>J Y S Czhang scripsit:
>
>>     So much so that in these supposed modern times a psychology
>> experiment AFAIK that was conducted just a few years ago showed that
>> waaaay too many EuroAmericanized people tend to associate not only
>> the colour black with death, evil and other "bad things" but photos
>> of African-American faces (and other people of darker skin tones)
>> with these very things as well. And the reaaaally freaky thing is
>> that something like 30% of the African-Americans in this experiment
>> responded identically to the "Whites" - talk about some kinda subconscious
>> self-loathing!
>
>I wouldn't bet on the reliability of that experiment.  In Zulu (the speakers
>of which are mostly very dark) the idiom "black-hearted" has exactly the
>same meaning as in English.  We fear the dark and are relieved by the coming
>of the light, no matter what our skin color is.
    Of course, this experiment was one of those American college psychology
department experiments using American subjects dragged almost literally off the
street ... so who really knows what the actual demographic factors are (i.e.
besides "race" and age).


In a message dated 2003:06:05 12:30:05 AM, Andreas quotes & writes:

>I'm of course aware of the tendency in western thought to see humans as
>very much apart from other animals.
    And the environment. Bingo! this is the Man Versus Nature
conflict/dichotomy in a nutshell. "Tendency" 0_o? Do I detect a little bit of rationalisation
or minimization? Or both?

>[snip]
>
>> > But the drive put it off as long as possible appear to unify most
>> >living beings.
>
>>     Yes I agree - to a certain extent. This simple generalisation does
>> not take into account individual insanity, suicide, mass hysteria, war and
>> heroic acts of altruistic suicide or suicide-as-protest. Or even consider
the
>> few truly mystical people who have actually willed themselves to physical
death
>> - "release", "liberation."
>
>I did say "most".
    Oops. Didn't notice that... my bad.

>It's, of course, not too hard to find altruistic suicide
>among non-humans either.
    Good to point that out :)

>> >> that natural processes can _not_ be controlled, avoided or
>>  >>defeated.
>
>> >This appears to boil down to determinism. Is that intended?
>
>>     AFAIK there is a very thin grey area between determinism and
>> fatalism.
>> Determinism strikes me as being more of a mechanistic and "Western"
>> conceptualization while fatalism is more of indeterminate, "organic"
>and "non-Western" worldview.
>>     Determinism IIRC has its roots in the theistic idea of God being
>> "the Absent Watch-Maker" which has evolved into the late19th-early20th
>> Century atheistic idea of the Universe-as-Vast-Clockworks. Determinism is
very
>> obsessively cause-&-effect "locked", i.e. the nature versus nurture
>>conflict/dichotomy (perhaps the old Reformation-era Lutheran influence has some
>>vague influence on this outlook).
>>     Fatalism on the other hand is less prescriptive in its belief that
>> one's totality (including possible past lives) and one's current actions
>> interact to create one's fate. Compounding this complexity is one's
interactions
>> with other humans (and animals), one's interactions with one's situation or
>> environment, one's interactions with God(s), etc..
>>     So one could say that determinism is a clockwork mechanism while
>> fatalism is a roll of many many-sided dice, a pachinko pinball machine or
a cycle
>> of water - from rain to creek to river to sea and back to rain or from rain
>> to earth to vegetation to... ya get the ruff idea, yeah?
>
>No. Now you're saying that "one's current actions" help to "create one's
>fate", which rather does suggest that one can influence one's future -
>ie, avoid (certain) natural processes.
    No no, it more like one's past-life karma and one's current dharma
_determine_ one's fate. There are so many factors determining one's fate that it
_seems_ like sentient beings have wide-ranging choices, "freedom." But this is
illusionary (of course realizing this illusionary, truly makes one free...) Then
to complicate matters further, Shit Happens - the un-avoidable things in life
like death and taxes.

    What is intriguing is that the recent sciences of chaos and complexity
seem to validate fatalism's model of the world.

>[snip]
>
>> >>     The Asian askes, "The aspects of the universe - existence - you
>> see as dangerous, hostile and other than yourself _just are_ the universe
>>> - are part-and-parcel of existence."
>
>> >Yes? It would seem to go without saying that any aspect of the
>>> universe is part of it ... ?
>
>>     For the longest time in Western societies - in the historical past
>> - considered anything dangerous, hostile and Other/Alien as being not
>> being "good" but "evil."
>
>Yes, but this is rather another kettle of fish, isn't it? Also, one strong
>undercurrent in western thought is to consider this world fundamentally
>evil, or in the grip of evil, and therefore goodness as something alien.
    That has not been a mainstream belief that has translated well into
modernity as has the theistic belief in an Absent Watchmaker that evolved into the
later atheistic view of a deterministic Clockwork Universe. The mainstream
Judeo-Christian belief is that God was pleased with His Creation and continues to
act through(out) Creation, therefore the world is basically good and
redeemable.
    But even in the whole-wide-world-is-evil minority belief,  anything
dangerous, hostile and Other/Alien/Foreign/Heathen/etc. was/is considered "evil" at
most, "in need of salvation/conversion" at very least. These particular
people tend to be rather scary IMHO.

>[snip]
>
>> >Actually trying to avoid dangerous things is, of course, optional,
>>> but it seems to be what animals, including Asian humans, normally opt
>>> for.
>
>>     Well, yes, naturally... like in the martial arts - in which we
>> Asian humans imitate [other] animals, the best Gung Fu is the art of
running >>away... very FAST (hehe, fight later when one has total advantage). But
if >>cornered or surrounded... well, conflict and possible injury and/or death
is
>> possible and _un_-avoidable. But that's life.
>
>Now you seem to be speaking my line ...
    Goodie, provisional pacifism ["don't mess with me and won't mess with
ya"] makes perfectly good animal sense, eh?

>>     Animals are wiser than us Higher Primates when it comes to certain
>> issues of life-or-death.
>
>And this is exactly the kind of remark I'd expect and be annoy by from
>an animal-rightist. If you'd only supply an "other" before "animals" ...
    At least in my monkeybrains, by labelling humans "Higher Primates" links
us monkeybrained fuckups directly to the animal kingdom.
    And I am a proud animal/human-rights activist... some lines from a poem I
wrote:

    i dream
                of
            animal liberation

    theirs
            yours
                    & mine

    animal _nirvana_
    theirs
    yours
    &
    mine


---
Hanuman Zhang

    "Those at the top of the social order are apt to preach benevolence and
righteousness to those at the bottom. Yet those at the top have typically
stolen their position from others. They are the greatest thieves, because they have
stolen the greatest amount of land and other property. So words about
benevolence and righteousness are usually the fruit of robbery." - Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi

"O wise humanity, terribly wise humanity! Of thee I sing. How inscrutable is
the civilization where men toil and work and worry their hair gray to get a
living and forget to play!" - Lin Yutang, _The Importance of Living_

    "...So what is life for? Life is for beauty and substance and sound and
colour; and even those are often forbidden by law [socio-cultural conventions].
. . . Why not be free and live your own life? Why follow other people's rules
and live to please others?..." ~Lieh-Tzu/Liezi, Taoist Sage (c. 450- c. 375
BCE)

"...we may be able to prove conclusively that all men are born with
potentially brilliant intellects...and that the source of cultural creativity is the
consciousness that springs from social cooperation and loving interaction...the
majority of us live far below our potential, because of the oppressive nature
of most societies." - John Blacking

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent.  It takes a touch of genius --- and a lot of courage --- to move in the
opposite direction."
 - E. F. Schumacker

    "Excess is excrement. Excrement retained in the body is poison." - Ursula
Le Guin

    "A man's character is determined by how hard he will fight for what he
believes in." - Aben Kandel

=> To Thine Own Self Be True <=

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