Re: CHAT: translation (was: Re: CHAT: "have a nice day")

Kou wrote:

>> The past indefinite specifies that the event happened at some
>> time (or times) in the past.  It contrasts with the past definite,
>> which specifies that the event happened at a particular single
>> time in the past:
>>
>> Past Indef:
>>         Sa ias-un upam
>>         "They ate apples (at some point)"
>>         "They have eaten apples before"
>>
>> Past def:
>>         Sa ias-e upam
>>         "They ate apples (then)"
>>
>> When negated, the past indefinite indicates that an event
>> has not taken place yet (has never taken place), while
>> the negated past definite indicates that an event did not
>> take place when it was supposed to, but may have taken
>> place at some other time:
>>
>>         Sa ias-oton upam
>>         "They haven't eaten apples yet"
>>         "They've never eaten apples"
>>
>>         Sa ias-otie upam
>>         "They didn't eat apples (at that time)"
>
>While I see obvious differences, there look to be cross-overs with the
>Romance imperfect and perfect tenses. How does Tokana distinguish between:
>"When I was five, we didn't eat apples (perhaps because they weren't
>available, or they were worm-ridden and made us barf) (not once, but over an
>indefinite period of time)". and
>"When I was five, we hadn't eaten apples (before, and then the American GIs
>gave us a basket of Granny Smiths)".
>Does it distinguish? Adverbial qualifications?
Good question!  Both of these contexts would require the past indefinite,
so the resulting sentence would be ambiguous:

        Iteh ialat kian ume imeh, mina iasoton upam
        "When I was five, we {didn't eat/hadn't ever eaten} apples"

The past habitual "we didn't eat apples" is the more salient interpretation,
I think, but the 'not yet' reading "we hadn't eaten apples" is also possible.
To explicitly indicate the second meaning, I guess you'd add an adverbial:

        Iteh ialat kian ume imeh, mina eima tu iasoton upam
        "When I was five, we still hadn't eaten apples"
        "When I was five, we hadn't yet eaten apples"
           (eima tu = still not, not yet)

For the first meaning, you could also use the subjunctive auxiliary "tule"
= "would/could/should" ("tulotie" = "wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't"),
which sometimes indicates a habitual action:

        Iteh ialat kian ume imeh, mina tulotie iasat upam
        "When I was five, we wouldn't eat apples"

Matt.