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YART (Was: Re: Inspirational languages)

From:H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...>
Date:Tuesday, January 16, 2007, 3:17
Yet Another Russian Thread. :-)

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 10:18:27PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > | On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 11:18:05AM +0100, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote: > | > H. S. Teoh skrev: > | > >Я люблю учить русски. > | > Shouldn't that be _uchit'sja_? (_j_ /j/ != _y_ /i\/ :-) > | > | Well, according to my textbook, учить is used for elementary and > | secondary education, or to adult aquisition of a specific skill, whereas > | учиться generally refers to higher education, or to mean "to study" > | without reference to the subject of study. > > I think something is wrong with this explanation, but I cannot > understand what. > I'd better give you examples of the correct Russian. > > Я учу химию. - I learn Chemistry (in the secondary school). > Я изучаю химию. - I study Chemistry (at the university).
So you'd use a different verb to distinguish between studying secondary school and studying at university? (Well, not really different, but cognate.)
> Я учусь в школе. - I go to school. > Я учусь в университете. - I study at the university.
In other words, "to study" without reference to subject of study?
> Я обучаюсь сапожному ремеслу. - I learn shoe mender's trade.
Сапожному ремеслу is dative case, right? So the verb here is the reflexive form, with a dative for the subject of study. Interesting.
> Я учу сестру читать. - I teach [my] sister how to read.
So accusative case for the person being taught, I guess?
> Я учу детей истории. (clumsy, a bit archaic) = Я обучаю > детей истории. > - I teach kids history.
Interesting. Doesn't обучать mean "to train"?
> Я учу их чтению. (ditto) = Я обучаю их чтению. - I teach them reading.
So again, accusative for people being taught, dative for the subject, it seems. Side question: is чтению pronounced ["tSt_jeniju] or ["St_jeniju]?
> Я учусь читать по-русски. - I learn how to read Russian.
Interesting. So when an infinitive is used, учить is "active" ("to teach") and учиться is "passive" ("to learn").
> Я преподаю химию студентам первого курса. - > I teach Chemistry to the > freshers.
Hmm. Here the accusative is used for the subject being taught, and dative for the students. Interesting.
> Я преподаю историю ученикам пятого класса. > = Я читаю историю в пятом > классе. - I teach History to the 5th Form pupils.
> | Учить can mean both "to teach" and "to learn", the distinction being > | drawn by the case of the nouns: "to teach" having the learner in the > | accusative case and the subject in the dative, whereas "to learn" > | having the subject in the accusative case (and the learner in the > | nominative). > > Верно. См. выше. -- That's true. See above.
This seems to work differently for other verbs like преподать, as you have above.
> | Having said all this, though, I did make a mistake: the spelling русски > | is only valid following the prefix по- (e.g., to speak *in Russian*). > | The correct phrase should be: Я люблю учить русский язык. Well, I hope > | that's the right expression. :-) Yitzik, please correct me if I'm wrong. > > This time you are 100% right. But it's better to use the verb > _нравиться_ "like" instead of _любить_ "love": _Мне нравится учить > русский язык._
I read about this in my book, that usually Russian would use нрпвится where the English may use "love" instead of "like". I guess любить would be used in occasions such as "I love you", although my book did have a conversation where someone said, Я люблю говорить по-русски. Would this be unusual in real-life?
> =========================== > Benct Philip Jonsson wrote: > > | > Having said all this, though, I did make a mistake: the > | > spelling русски is only valid following the prefix > | > по- (e.g., to speak *in Russian*). > | > | Whotsit coming from I wonder? The old locative of a short > | adjective perhaps?
[...] Speaking of short adjectives... it seems to me that they are essentially predicative adjectives, is that right? (In the sense that they are adjectives being used as a predicate.) T -- ASCII stupid question, getty stupid ANSI.


Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...>