Re: Rating Languages

En réponse à David Peterson <DigitalScream@...>:

> In a message dated 9/25/01 2:26:51 AM, dan@FEUCHARD.FSNET.CO.UK
> writes:
>
> << How do you mean? It's pretty straightforward to me. >>
>
>     No reflexive makes any sense to me except English, where
> absolutely
> nothing is reflexive unless you want it to be.  We don't shower
> ourselves, or
> wash ourselves our hands, or any of that business.  Though I can almost
> see
> that we're on the way there, with colloquial expressions, mainly "I
> got
> me...", e.g., "I got me a new shirt today."  Oh, but that's not really
> reflexive, so much as...ditransitive, is it?  I don't understand it at
> all.
Ditransitive with indirect object identical to subject is reflexive to me
(because in French it is :) ). So it's just a matter of naming the problem.

> If you say it's straightforward, then teach it to me.
>
In fact, to me it's English which is not straightforward. With English
transitive verbs, when you omit the object, it can mean depending on the verb
or the intention of the speaker:
- that the object is undetermined: I eat.
- that the object is identical to the subject: I wash, I shower.

In French, when the object of a transitive verb is omitted, it can ONLY mean
that it is undetermined ('je mange', identical to 'I eat'), NEVER that it is
identical to the subject. When the subject and the object are identical,
reflexive pronouns are mandatory: 'je me lave': 'I wash MYSELF', 'je me
douche': 'I shower MYSELF' (OK, in English you'd rather say 'I take a
shower' :)) ). If you say: 'je lave' in French, you'll get automatically the
question: 'tu laves QUOI ?': 'WHAT do you wash?'.

The second use of the reflexive, in which case the reflexive corresponds to an
indirect object rather than a direct object, is to mark kind of a middle voice:
the action happens to oneself or in oneself, or for oneself's benefit. Hence
verbs like "se dire" ('je me dis que': 'I think that', 'I tell myself that') or
expressions like 'je me prends...': 'I get me....' (to be interpretated as 'I
get... for myself'). The other example you gave: 'je me lave les mains': 'I
wash myself the hands' (not 'MY hands') can be considered to be part of the
same scheme (the action affects the subject, so it's middle voice). I can also
be explained by the fact that when the object is mandatorily possessed by the
subject (usually only body parts), the possession is not marked by a possessive
adjective but by a reflexive pronoun (it may also be a case that the reflexive
is used because the object is partly identical with the subject, i.e. it's a
part of the subject, thus coming back to the first case :) ). This is the only
case that it truly not straightforward in the use of the reflexive pronoun in
French, but if you take it as a manifestation of its use to mark middle voice,
it will become easier to understand.

As you can see, the use of the reflexive is really simple. It's used in two
cases:
- subject identical to object,
- middle voice.

The use of the reflexive to mark possession of the object by the subject
seemingly being explanable by both cases (case of overlap?).

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr