Re: Clockwise without clocks

On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 08:08 , Elyse M. Grasso wrote:

> On Wednesday 30 March 2005 01:49 pm, caeruleancentaur wrote:
>> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Elyse M. Grasso" <emgrasso@D...>
>> wrote:
>>> There's a reason north hemispere clocks run the direction they do...
>>
>>> Ack.... note to self, do not try to type while eating lunch.
>>> That should be sunwise (deosil) and widdershins.
I thought the Scots word for 'sunwise' was spelled _deasil_ - it is BTW
derived from Gaelic _deisiel_.

>> That's the best way to describe it IMO.  However, you may need to
>> make
>> another note to yourself.  "North hemisphere clocks"?  Do clocks in
>> the southern hemisphere run widdershins??? :-)
Depends what you mean by 'widdershins' (another Scots word - also spelled
'withershins' or 'widershins'). In the strictly narrow meaning "contrary
to the course of the sun", then, yes, mechanical clocks do run withershins
in the southern hemisphere (tho I believe one or two individuals have
constructed mechanical clocks that run 'anticlockwise'). Sundials must run
sunwise (deasil) and, thus, 'anticlockwise' in the southern hemisphere  :)

Thinks - Why the fondness for Scots dialect when talking about movement of
sun, shadows etc.? What's wrong with plain ol' English 'sunwise' and
'anti-sunwise/counter-sunwise' ?

[snip]

> Sunwise and antisunwise are opposite south of the equator, so since
> clocks in
> the southern hemisphere run clockwise they are running (locally)
> widdershins
> if widdershins is defined by the motion of the sun.
Spot on!

> For other definitions
> (always turning right (or left)) one might argue that widdershins does not
> change phase when you cross the equator. Visualize a sundial...
The trouble with withershins/wid(d)ershins (apart from dialect variation)
is that it is often used loosely to mean 'in the wrong way, in a contrary
direction', which in fact was the original meaning of the word (from Low
German _weddersins_). Cf. Old English _wither_ "against"/  and L.G. _sind_
"direction", O.E. síth (<-- *sinT) "journey").
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On Thursday, March 31, 2005, at 01:02 , H. S. Teoh wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 04:36:51PM -0700, Muke Tever wrote:
>> H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 12:17:48PM -0500, Geoff Horswood wrote:
>>>> So how would you express the ideas of "clockwise" and "anticlockwise"
>>>> in a
>>>> culture that doesn't have clocks?
Like the way our culture is going   :)

It is surprising how unfamiliar many youngsters are with analog clock
movements and indeed cannot tell the time from such clocks - tho perhaps
with increasing use of digital time-pieces, it's not so surprising. It
used to be a standard exercise in teaching modern languages to give
pictures of clock faces for students to give the time in the appropriate
language. When I tried this some 30 years back, some students were quite
lost & since that time, unfamiliarity with analog clocks has increased.

>>> How about the movement of a wheel, whether rotating to the left or
>>> right? (Left-wheeling and right-wheeling for clockwise/counter-
>>> clockwise). Should be pretty unambiguous, I think.
>>
>> Unambiguous? Isn't that the ambiguity "clockwise" and "counterclockwise"
>> are trying to resolve?
>
> By unambiguous I meant that it is clear from the example itself which
> rotation is left-wheeling and which is right-wheeling, as opposed to
> something like "clockwise" and "counterclockwise", which requires that
> the listener have prior knowledge of which of the two possible ways
> the clock turns.
Exactly - quite often, in fact, I find I need to explain what clockwise
means   :)

[snip]
>> Going back to the wheel, saying that clockwise is turning left implies
>> that
>> your speakers are focusing on the top end (9-3) of the wheel. This might
>> not
>> always be the case (maybe if they read bottom-to-top, they might watch
>> the
>> bottom of the wheel first?)
> [...]
>
> No, the example is that of *rolling* wheels, not of stationary turning
> wheels.
Quite so. In any case, who focuses on just the top or the bottom of a
wheel?

>  When a wheel rolls to the left, its rotation (relative to your
> point of view) is always left-wheeling (clockwise), and when it rolls
> to the right, it is always right-wheeling (anti-clockwise).
Yep - and if you're uncertain, all you have to do is to take a coin from
your pocket and roll it slowing along your desktop, table-top or whatever
   :)

> You're not
> deciding left/right based on which part of the wheel you look at;
> you're deciding it based on the motion of the wheel *as a whole*
> across the ground.
Yep - wheels are a bit useless if they do not move as a whole   :D

And the advantage of describing the movement by rightwise or leftwise
wheel movement is that it's the same whether you're in the northern or
southern hemisphere, whether your planet is in a solar system with just
one sun or a couple of suns rotating about each other etc.
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On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 09:42 , Christian Thalmann wrote:

> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Geoff Horswood <geoffhorswood@H...> wrote:
>> So how would you express the ideas of "clockwise" and
>> "anticlockwise" in a
>> culture that doesn't have clocks?
>
> The mathematical way to describe those is "lefthanded"
> and "righthanded".  If you look straight onto the
> outstretched thumb of your right hand, the fingers curl
> around it counter-clockwise, and vice versa for the left
> hand.
True - but a wheel rolling rightwards turns clockwise   :)

> The direction of the axis is important, since any
> clockwise rotation looks anticlockwise when viewed from
> the other side.
Very true - which is why the Latinate adjectives 'dextrorse' and
'sinistrorse' are not really satisfactory, as they have had opposite
meanings at different times. Of 'dextrorse', my dictionary say:
"rising spirally and turning to the left, i.e. crossing an outside
observer's field of view from left to right upwards (like a screw-nail):
formerly used in the contrary sense (sinistrorse)."

There is a similar entry for 'sinistrorse'   :)

That's why, I guess, it's important to know whether we are talking about
righthanded & lefthanded spirals or screw threads, or we are talking about
movement of _rolling_ wheels. At least with a rolling wheel, not only does
a clockwise rotation look anticlockwise when viewed from the other side,
it also rolls along in the opposite direction!

Maybe 'dextrivolvent' (cockwise) and & 'sinistrivolvent' (anti-clockwise)
   ;)

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]