Re: Tolerance (was: THE WORLD OF THE JINN)

On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 10:00 , Joe wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Brown" <ray.brown@...>
[snip]

> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause any offense, indeed.
I quite certain you didn't.
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On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 10:06 , P. M. Arktayg wrote:

> Ray Brown ta nugatu-r:
>
>> I detest & abominate bigotry. Can't we on Conlang, at least, show a
>> little
>> tolerance?
>
> Tolerance? This is an empty word for me. Raymond, if you write
> "understanding", then I agree.
I agree that understanding is very important. But in this case I am of the
opinion
that tolerance is also important.  I think I understand, e.g., the central
Nazi
doctrines - but I find Nazism loathsome and IMO not worthy of toleration.

In the case of Islam, yes, I agree understanding is important; but
ignorance IME
is too often born from a lack of tolerance.
 =========================================================================
On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 08:57 , Andreas Johansson wrote:

> Quoting Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>:
>
[snip]
>> Sad that someone finds it unexpected.
>
> Well, (traditional) Christianity wouldn´t expect Muslims getting to
> heaven.
Eh?
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in
the
first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith
of
Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge
on the last day."
Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841.

I should, perhaps, make clear that the preceding paragraph has talked of
the
Jews and considered that "The Jewish faith........is already a response to
God's revelation in the Old Covenant".  Thus the "also" in the first line
above
is to be understood as 'others besides Christians & Jews'; and the first
place
amongst others are the Muslims.

I was under the impression that only conservative fundamentalist & some
cults
took such an exclusive view of Heaven as Andreas suggests. I would truly
be sad
to learn otherwise.
 =========================================================================

On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 11:05 , Paul Bennett wrote:
[snip]

> Well, as I understand it, each stage of (at least the one main branch of)
>  the Judeo-
> Christian mythos is inclusive of the previous stages, but believes that
> the essential
> message of God's word has been misinterpreted or forgotten by the previous
> stages.
>
> Thus, in the hierarchy
>
> Jews --> Christians --> Muslims --> Sikhs
Too simplistic, Paul. Where, for example, do the Druze and the Baha'i
faith fit into
this supposed hierarchy?

> At any point on the line, the people at that point believe that
> themselves and the
> people to the left of them are allowed into heaven, and that people to
> the right of
> them are heretics.
Again, too simplistic - see my reply to Andreas above. And being a heretic
is not
automatic condemnation.  If one is born into heresy and knows nothing else,
  it would
be an unjust Deity that denied such a person heaven.

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of
Christ or his Church,
but who, nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace,
try in their
action to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their
conscience -
these too may achieve eternal salvation."
Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 847.

Seems to me the silent majority of ordinary, faithful Muslim and Sikhs fit
the above
description, even tho they are on the right.

Ray
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