CHAT: Strictly CHAT: Uniates and sacraments (was: Brithenig/Aelyan

Raymond Brown scripsit:

> ...and here we get onto thorny ground where debate can get acrimonious.
> Apostolic Succession alone is not enough.  If, e.g. a neo-Nazi regime
> established itself in, say, California (I am *NOT* implying anything by
> this - I'd guess that probabaly CA is one of the least likely places) and
> the State seceeded from the Union, although they retained the Governor &
> all the governmental institutions, would that make those institutions
> automatically valid?
Well, going from religion to politics......

No State can secede from the Union: that was settled by the sword in 1865.

Assuming the neo-Nazis came to power by election, the way Hitler did,
their government would be legitimate and their institutions valid.
What happened after that would be a question, but although the U.S.
constitution requires a republican form of government and makes
Federal law (including the constitution itself) supreme, a
state government retains a surprising amount of autonomy and even
sovereignty: there are many areas into which the national govt.
may not intervene.

>
> Now one can argue till the cows come home (as we say)
So do we: the Sundering Sea has not sundered our homely metaphors.

> Orthodox orders are valid (not conditionally, they are).  The choice for an
> Orthodox priest joining the Roman Catholic fold is whether to retain his
> own rites and be a 'Uniate' or to change over to the Latin rite.  AFAIK
> such priests normally retain their Eastern rites.
Current policy is actually to insist on the retention of the Eastern rites,
I believe.

> "Old Catholic" orders are also recognized as valid (i.e. those Catholic
> communities in continental Europe (and I guess there are probably now some
> in the US) which went into schism when the definition of Papal
> infallibility was solemnly proclaimed at Vatican I (I believe there were
> one or two other schism as well).
There was an organization called FICOB, the Federation of Independent Catholic
and Orthodox Bishops, an umbrella organization for bishops
and archbishops that have the A.S. but are in schism for one reason
or another.  FICOB is now defunct, but some of their resources
are still on the Net at http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch01331 .

--
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin