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Re: CHAT: Strictly CHAT: Uniates and sacraments (was: Brithenig/Aelyan

From:Raymond Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Thursday, April 13, 2000, 19:55
At 10:45 am -0400 13/4/00, John Cowan wrote:
>Raymond Brown scripsit: > >> ...and here we get onto thorny ground where debate can get acrimonious. >> Apostolic Succession alone is not enough. If, e.g. a neo-Nazi regime >> established itself in, say, California (I am *NOT* implying anything by >> this - I'd guess that probabaly CA is one of the least likely places) and >> the State seceeded from the Union, although they retained the Governor & >> all the governmental institutions, would that make those institutions >> automatically valid? > >Well, going from religion to politics...... > >No State can secede from the Union: that was settled by the sword in 1865. > >Assuming the neo-Nazis came to power by election, the way Hitler did, >their government would be legitimate and their institutions valid.
I know about the session business. That's why I said 'seceded' - the government would not be regarded as any longer legitimate nor the institutions valid - the more so if the government changed from democracy to autocracy. The government would no longer have the same intention as that of the US. I know so-called parallel examples are never perfect & the seccession of the Anglican church from Rome under the Tudors was rather different, I trying to make the point that mere retention of apparently the same institutions does not necessarily make them valid in the eyes of the nation/church from which the seccession was made.
> >> >> Now one can argue till the cows come home (as we say) > >So do we: the Sundering Sea has not sundered our homely metaphors.
Good :)
>> Orthodox orders are valid (not conditionally, they are). The choice for an >> Orthodox priest joining the Roman Catholic fold is whether to retain his >> own rites and be a 'Uniate' or to change over to the Latin rite. AFAIK >> such priests normally retain their Eastern rites. > >Current policy is actually to insist on the retention of the Eastern rites, >I believe.
I believe it is. [snip]
> >There was an organization called FICOB, the Federation of Independent Catholic >and Orthodox Bishops, an umbrella organization for bishops >and archbishops that have the A.S. but are in schism for one reason >or another. FICOB is now defunct,
Hopefully because the reasons for the schism are healed. I would dearly love to see a heaking of the schism between my Church & the Orthodox communities before I leave this world. Ray. ========================================= A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language. [J.G. Hamann 1760] =========================================